Re: $0 Prize Rated Tournaments but as masters don't pay EFs why should we?? Chess is a Sport!!

Mr. Goichberg:

Ok respectfully I accept what you say as reasonable but as a hands on type
of guy I am accustomed of doing the research and the numbers I realize that
there is some truth to what you say but find it hard to believe that all the
facts related to such matters (which I know you have experience) have been
expositioned... I agree that some members of the public are expectant of
their conviences but also being who I am I can not come to accept $86 per
night hotel rooms (Bally's Resort for the 13th Annual North American Open)
for the 26-29th 4 days or $344 that is added on to the EF ($221) and
compounded by the the costs of travel ($217 by gad szooks) plus meals and
related expenses (totaling over $782) to win a prizes of between
$3000-10,000 totaling $100k of which 50% is guaranteed (very expensive)
based on 650 entrants at $221 that's only $143,650 from which there are
other expenses and revenues (OK) OK a big chess tournament only comes to
town maybe once or twice a year (? interesting)

>From the outside what I see is the main expense is the prize money but for
those traveling to such tournaments the main expenses are accommodations and
expenses which % wise are more than 250% of the EF costs ... so relatively
after excluding the monies related to prizes awarded your expenses are less
than those attending chess tournaments.  Yes I would like to stay where the
tournament is being held .... do I want to be trying to find my way  around
a strange city/town just prior to a competitive event (no) but you must
realize on a strictly numbers basis
there has to be a better way e.g. I live in a small city now (ex-NYC)
without much chess activity maybe I will do some organizing myself (maybe I
can be successful at it [who knows]) but after some preliminary research
(very preliminary tentative) I found a 200 room hotel with  a conference
hall of some size(could be bigger) and examined costs and find tentatively
not on the scale of a Bellagio or even a Bally's (I've been to Atlantic
City) that maybe such matters can be done differently so as to restructure
expenses to fit most peoples' budgets.  I realize as a business the net
profits you realize could be better (though they are not bad ... but is that
a question?) in considering arrangements... I gave two alternative examples
of different venues where the whole contract doesn't have to be handled by a
single outfit like Bally's .... though they are well suited to present (I'm
sure) to present a total package to you with everything needed to conclude
some business (which is less complicated for some one organizing such an
affair .. as there is only one contract for services to be made to work and
not 2 or 3 or 4 contract etc..  that I understand .... but I did not hear
you to suggest that a less expensive venue was not feasible or impossible.

Traditionally who goes to Vegas (though it is an  International place) it's
the people from California, Texas, Utah, Colorado etc as the people on the
East coast go to Atlantic City, but for them with the exception of travel
their expenses would be for all intents and purposes as much as someone
coming from NYC or Pa or Chicago as all of them need someplace to stay (and
they don't want to go camping or sleep in their cars in December out there
(its cold and is not that safe - might be illegal) so why can't a motel be
found nearby well for one the City of Las Vegas Bureau of Tourism (Ha) when
called said they do not provide infomation on motels (how convienent) and if
one goes out there it would be a hard enough without having to run around
but I have it on good authority that Vegas has plenty of places which are
underbooked and crying for business they just are off the radar screen when
you have to find via telephone email or by internet.

So that is why according to you:

> Placing a big money tournament in a school or other non-hotel site costs
many
> entries, as most out of town players want the convenience of staying where
the
> tournament is.  Even if a cheap motel is next door, most players stay at
the
> host hotel.
>
> Bill Goichberg

Because even if the cheap motel is right next door they wouldn't know its
there as its is even ignored by the Vegas Office of Tourism

Another example in point in Mexico with salaries often in some parts of
Mexico being $80 a month the slick idiots
of the Mexican Ministry of Tourism can't find someting to direct people to
something cheaper (via 800 line as they the government caters to a bunch of
hotels catering to spoiled tourists who never know what Mexico looks like..
just as in every major city of the world the major hotel businesses do ...
though in Paris, London, New York City, etc good clean and inexpensive
accomodations can be found

I think you are a very astute man.. So answer me this who should the money
go to the participants and organizers of chess tournaments or the big
hotels? for whereas let's say you had 650 entrants ($143,650 gross) those
participants could have approximately $223,600 in Bally hotel fees so for
approximately $143,650 in earnings divided between the entrants and
organizers the expenses are $223,600. So something is definately wrong as
over where I am for $223,600 I can maybe buy 10 houses, or rent 500 one
bedroom apartments for a month (providing accommodations for lets say 2-3
people per thats 1000-1500 people totaling stays of 4 days each, which in
theory could accomodate 7000 people to stay and play in 4 day chess
tournaments (please pardon my making light of this as you know all of what I
said and merely wished me work my ass off to support point you already
understood.

Now maybe the USCF should buy a place instead of rent it.. but then again
I'm proberly to altruistic or naive and one of the bright critics of the
USCF (the rude boys who are too cheap to even pay up their dues (* footnote
1) may make an issue of that too after all some creat problems and others
solve them which are you and me?

Are you financing or am I?

A1

"Recmate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: $0 Prize Rated Tournaments but as masters don't pay EFs why
> >should we?? Chess is a Sport!!
> >From: "A1" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Date: 10/15/2003 11:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >Current listed in the chess travel group there are 3 tournaments listed
for
> >which people are looking to split costs especially the HR over 3-4
> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chess_travel/) as the total costs are very
> >high (though proper accomodations are needed) can the availability of
> >conference room etc justify the added but not so hidden cost of
> >accommodations ( I understand it often is a package deal But .....) as I
am
> >sure that other accomodations can be had if the added trouble was taken
(eg
> >a complete list of facilities in the surrounding area [cheaper hotels])
for
> >which separate facilities can often be had (eg in Universities that would
> >host tournamnets with outside attendees allowed/ dorms rented [as in
Europe
> >(Cite Universitaire/Paris)] .... In New York City I believe Armories have
> >been used for Fleas markets et al, and why do "high class" tournaments
> >always have to be booked in what seems the most expensive venue if the
> >purses are over $1000 per?? actually it does take time but highly
feasible
> >as eg the Bally Resorts Hotel this December is not the cheapest/least
> >expensive venue neither is Foxwoods etc. but this is where the
> >organizational weaknesses of the USCF comes to the fore and Chess
occupies
> >often the same bill in Casinos with hard gambling where the owners get
the
> >beter part of the deal (hmm where is the moral substance here) where in
> >those despotic totalitarian regimes (hmm) those no-good-niks (with state
> >sponsered programs [even France and Germany [not to mention Russia/or the
> >USSR], or maybe Argentina is better than the US no wonder there was only
one
> >Fischer or Morphy])....
>
> Ballys is a lot cheaper than Bellaggio, Caesar's, Mandalay Bay, etc.  It's
also
> more expensive than many Las Vegas hotels, but most of the hotels cheaper
than
> Ballys have insufficient meeting space.  Those that have enough space tend
to
> have poor lighting, exposure to noise, scattered meeting rooms, and/or
> outrageous meeting room rent.  You shouldn't be "sure" you could do better
if
> you haven't tried.
>
> Placing a big money tournament in a school or other non-hotel site costs
many
> entries, as most out of town players want the convenience of staying where
the
> tournament is.  Even if a cheap motel is next door, most players stay at
the
> host hotel.
>
> Bill Goichberg
>
> >
> >But it will not be treated as a sport until after Soccer (commercially)
> >unless we drawn on it/ and support it as a sport for the betterment of
> >people... so call me a fascist, call me a Red but let's place this into
its
> >proper perspective sportingly gentle men and ladies let's take chess out
of
> >the casino and gutter and for which I will wear my best silk suit, tie,
and
> >white shirt... by the way is the (Central Park Rapid now a USCF rated
event?
> >as that is an example of what maybe able to be done as it has good
> >attendence I hear)
> >
> >"Ed Gaillard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >> A1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >Maybe you should explain the confernce rooms aspect of what you said
as I
> >> >don't see the benifit of holding tournaments far removed from the
general
> >> >population in hotels that charge alot for rooms (hotel rates have
nothing
> >> >really to do with renting part of a hotel do they?)
> >>
> >> Yes, they do.  Conventions and conferences held in hotels normally get
> >> function space for free if their attendees fill enough rooms of the
> >> hotel.  I assume chess tournament organizers get the same kind of
> >> deals.

------------------------------------------------------------------
footnote one
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
From: "Miriling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess.politics
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:09 AM
Subject: Battle of USCF nonmembers: Haas vs. Draney


> Two of the most vocal critics of the USCF are former members Richard S.
Haas of
> Florida and Bruce G. Draney of Nebraska. Both let their memberships expire
> early in the 21st century - Draney, in September 2002,

USCF ID   St   Exp Date    Reg  Quick     Member Name
--------  --  ----------  ----- ----- -----------------------
10374545 (NE) 2002-09-30  1913  1784  DRANEY, BRUCE G

10763410 10-01 HAAS,RICHARD S       FL 12-90 1954