Re: russia vs. japan in 1941 [WAS: Re: 50% of NAZI oil..]

"Stuart Wilkes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Keith Willshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > "Stuart Wilkes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > "John Mullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > We did not badly to win the air and sea battles with Nazi Germany.
> >  Neither
> > > > was easy and both had costs attached. Of course we couldn't have won
> >  overall
> > > > without the support of the USA and the USSR, both of which in their
own
> >  ways
> > > > hedged their bets until the decision to enter the war was forced
upon
> >  them.
> > >
> > > Not by their choice.  The Soviets had alliances with Czechoslovakia
> > > and France since 1935, and offered Great Britain and France a full-up
> > > Triple Alliance with all the trimmings on 17 April 1939.  Too bad
> > > Chamberlain refused to take it seriously, preferring to pursue
> > > Anglo-German agreement.
> > >
> >
> > Given that Stalin had
> >
> > 1) Reneged on his agreements with Czechoslovakia when that nation
> > asked the Soviets to intervene in 1938
>
> False.  The Czechoslovak government never made any request for Soviet
> aid.  The Czechoslovak government decided on their own that they would
> accept the Munich dictate.  In his memoirs, Benes maintains that the
> Soviets were willing to go beyond the committments they had made,
> should the Czechoslovak government desire.  The Czechoslovak
> government made no such request.
>

This is incorrect, the Soviet government did not respond
to Benes when he appealed for help under the terms
of the 1935 treaty. The Soviets prevaricated knowing
all too well what the consequences would be.

> > 2) Just finished decimating the Red Army by killing three out of five
Soviet
> > marshals, fifteen out of sixteen army commanders, sixty out of 67
> > corps commanders, and 136 out of 199 divisional commanders
> > and 36,761 officers.
>
> Hm.  One wonders how this purged Soviet Army managed to inflict over 3
> times as many German KIA in the first seven weeks of Barbarossa as the
> combined Franco-Anglo-Belgian-Dutch armies managed in the six-week
> campaign in the West.
>

While losing ten times as many men

> And the purges themselves had no impact on Western estimates of the
> Soviet military.  They derided it before the Purges, and the derided
> it after the Purges.  Tukhachevskii was discovered in the West to have
> been a military genius only after he was safely dead.
>

The purges had clear and direct effects on the Soviet military
which was found to be inadequate to the task of defeating
mighty Finland

> > 3) Had just presided over the man made famine in the Ukraine
> >
> > Its scarcely suprising that Soviet promises were viewed with
> > a degree of scepticism.
> >
> >
> > > > Of the two, that of the USSR was IMO the less honourable.
> > >
> > > They had been excluded from the prewar European diplomacy, and their
> > > alliance offers to the Western Allies refused.  Once that was clear,
> > > they looked after themselves.  Nothing dishonorable about that.
> >
> > The secret codicils to the Soviet-German non-aggression pact
> > were scarcely honorable,
>
> With Chamberlain determined on Anglo-German agreement, it would have
> been highly unwise for the Soviets to pass up the offer.
>

Chamberlain was determined on peace, nothing more and
nothing less.

> > neither was the Soviet invasion
> > of the Baltic states and Finland,
>
> It also would have been unwise for the Soviets to have let Germany
> occupy the Baltic States.
>

That happened anyway dies to Stalis destruction
of the red army.

> > unless you consider that
> > the Finnish hordes poised to sweep across the borders
> > of the USSR were a major threat to the Rodina.
> >
> > Fact is Stalin was already secretly negotiating with Germany in 1938
>
> And the British had been <openly> negotiating with Nazi Germany since
> 1935, concluding agreements that permitted German naval rearmament, as
> well as selling Czechoslovakia out.
>

Nations tend to negotiate openly with each other, its
called diplomacy I believe.

> > and thought he could cut a cosy deal with his buddy
> > Adolf and carve up Central Europe between them.
>
> No sense letting "good old Neville" hand it all to Adolpf.
>

Neville didnt had Poland to Adolf, he declared
war insted, handing Poland to Adolf was Uncle Joe's
doing.

> > Oops
>
> Got a better alternative for him?

Sure, stop selling the Nazis war materials would be a good start.
Hell the Russians supplied Germany with the fuel for Barbarossa.

Keith