Re: The Value Of DBT

>Snip previous discussion  
> >Stewart Pinkerton wrote:>
> >There is *by definition*, no such thing as 'careful' sighted
> >listening
> >
You answered:
> That is, once again, your opinion asserted as a fact.  You have never shown an
> proof that dbts work at all in open-ended audio equipment comparisons using
> music. You have only made that assumption. 
> Dbts appear to get in the way of the subjects' ability to remember and >identify 
> subtle detail (anything other than gross frequency response and >loudness). 
> In fact, when used this way, there appears to be no such thing as a "reliable
> open-ended dbt".  
> Regards,
> Mike

              I could imitate the techniques favoured by some: take
Mr. Pinkerton's nonsensical statement: "There is *by definition*, no
such thing as 'careful' sighted listening. " at its face value and run
with it shouting "What about the piano playing exams in music schools,
what about the piano and violin competitions, what about attending a
concert or an opera?"
               But I believe that the only way to discuss rationally
between rational discussants is to avoid this kind of trickery and
stick to good debating manners. So I'll try to look at his intent
rather than the formulation and assume that he was talking  strictly
about comparing audio components.
                And here is the snag. You're absolutely right saying
that the value of ABX/DBT for component comparison by the broadly-
based panel of audio consumers was never established the only proper
way- by well-designed experiments.
                 Null=negative results are the only ones available-
they do not prove the value of this method- on the contrary they throw
doubt on it as a proper investigative tool. In addition the individual
performances of the panelists were all over the place.
                 This was pointed out "countless times" and the
appropriate references were given in full.
                  In medical drug trials only a "prospective, random"
test is considered conclusive.
                   Here is a proposal for a similar convincing test as
to the value of ABX/DBT for comparing music reproduction by
components.1) Do all the mesurements you can on the components chosen
for comparison 2) select a panel as broadly-based as possible: age,
gender, musical preferences and experience, etc.etc. 3) demonstrate
that the answers of the statistically convincing number of panelists
correlate with your measurements.
                  Or not. Till this is donme the argument is
pointless.
                   Anyone can choose the bias-avoiding method that
suits him best if he feels he needs one.
Ludovic Mirabel