Re: [News] Japan's New Export

"Peter Van Huffel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Fata Morgana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:

> > I misread the word "insufficient", but the word "degrading" does indeed
> > appear in the statement.  Which is all beside the point - it's still
> > pretentious to think that Japanese comics are somehow ultimately so
> superior
> > to American ones that they need an entirely new word to describe them.
The
> > ONLY reason I use the word manga in place of 'Japanese comic' is that
it's
> > more terse.
>
> You obviously have a twisted logic, because you're reading things that
have
> not even been said. Noone said something about "superior", the statement
was
> about being "different"!

Er, no... Here it is:

> >> >> To call manga 'Japanese comics' is like calling a painting
> >> >> by Michelangelo a picture.  Both are true statements and both
> >> >> are utterly insufficient and degrading.

"Both are true statements"--> "Calling manga 'Japanese comics' is a true
statement"-->"[is] utterly insufficient and degrading"

Thereby,  "degrading manga by calling it Japanese comics."

> In the universe of SEQUENTIAL ART, there are many different genres.
Calling
> french "bandes dessinées", "french comics" *is* degrading. Calling "manga"
a
> sort of "Japanese comics" is also degrading. The reason why? Not because
> "comics" are inferior (which is what you seem to think what was meant by
it),

When a person states that object A is degraded by comparison to object B, it
tends to imply that A is superior (of a higher grade) to B. And for A to be
superior, it means that B is inferior (of a lower grade.) Hence "de-grade."

What do you think about Spanish tebeos? Or my favorite slang term for the
medium, "monitos"?

> no, because "manga" *are different* from "comics".

Then why didn't the author write "utterly insufficient and inaccurate"?
Words like "degrading" are emotionally and factually charged, and must be
chosen properly before committing them to print. Not to mention "degrading"
has a meaning completely unlike "different."

> In your logic, you wouldn't mind me calling an x-men-comic an "American
> manga", I hope?

*shrug* The Japanese do, actually. Since they invented the word, well, I
suppose they should know o_O

> No sir, it can only be out of arrogance that you think that everything
abroad
> is a derivative of what you have at home.
>
> Yes, let's continue in the same vein and make some other derivatives, most
of
> them I've already seen in the past and they make me cringe (trying not to
> shock people here, but it's to make my point clear):
>
> mosque = Arabic church

Arabic temple, actually, since "church" refers to a body of people, not a
building. Even allowing for the latter, it's still only a subset of the
"temple" class. Kind of how the Western interpretation of "manga" is a
subset of the "comic" class.

> cosmonaut = Russian astronaut

*boggle* Is there any functional difference?

> ramen = Japanese noodles

*shrug* No one I've ever met has had any problem with using one or the other
indistinctly.

> Such descriptions are generally used to give children a point of
reference,
> but once you grow up, you should outgrow this and start using the correct
> word for things you describe, because the correct term will be infinitely
> more accurate. It's also simply a matter of respect towards another
culture
> to use the original word.

And it's also barbarism. Respect for another's culture is all well and good,
but not at the expense of destroying your own language.

> > insufficient about the word "comic."  To demand that we don't call them
>
> And you are really stubborn, because I repeat for the nth time that I nor
the
> original article said that comics are inferior.

Uh, yes it did. See above. For something to be "degraded," it means that the
object of comparison is inferior to the original subject.

>  It's the combination of the
> two "JAPANESECOMIC" (I'll write them as one word, maybe you'll finally see
> it) that's completely insufficient.

*shrug* I think of "Japanimation" as a silly 90's buzzword, but not
particularly troublesome.

> Maybe you don't realize it, but to most
> people I know (ie non-americans) the word "comic" is very closely
associated
> to sequential art produced in America. As such: the Japanese do not
produce
> "comics" to me.

I'm not American either, and even the most hard-headed local otaku I know
has outgrown the "manga!=comics" phase. Even the "l33t" fan in our group
uses "manga/comic" without distinction.

(Same applies to "anime"/"Japanese animation"/"Japanese cartoon" BTW.)

> > comics is like demanding that we come up with a new word for "film" in
> > reference to Japanese cinema, since "Seven Samurai" and "Ran" are
obviously
> > *so much more* than films.   By saying that, you're basically ignoring
all
>
> That's an incorrect comparison. By your logic, I should search for new
words
> for "book", "magazine"..., because they can be foreign? Do not confuse the
> form with the content.

I thought he was specifically citing content, but oh, well.

It's like calling the tankouban "compilations." Which I do, anyway, when I
don't call them "volumes" outright.

> > the American comics that are superior to the dreck surrounding them.
More
> > importantly, you're ignoring the exceedlingly high amount of manga that
is
> > pure dreck.  Most manga sucks ass; as do most American comics.  Remember
> > Sturgeon's Law.
>
> I knew that 25 years ago, your point being?

His point, as I understood it, is that "manga" are not intrinsically
superior to "comics," because there's tripe in both. Therefore, by
eliminating that distinction, manga is said to be on the same level as
comics, meaning that it's not "degrading" to call it such.

In your opinion, why *is* manga "so much more"? Is it the themes? The
pictographic structure? The character development?


The Zephyr
(Puzzled at why you seem so offended by this. It's just a word.)