Re: LOTR and 20th Century Western European Prejudices

"MasterDebater" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: 
> "Jeffrey C. Dege" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:28:34 -0800, MasterDebater
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>It is highly unlikely that the UK could have survived the war
>>>without American assistance, and I believe that the Soviets
>>>would be unable to defeat the Nazis without American assistance.
>>>In fact, I think that only 
>>>the
>>>Americans had the ability to defeat the axis powers unaided.
>>
>> The US didn't have the manpower to invade a unified Europe on its
>> own. 
> 
> I disagree.
> A. It is not clear that America would be required to invade
> Europe. B-29s carrying Atom bombs would do the job nicely,
> eventually.

The US pipped Germany to the finishing line with British help.  Without 
British scientists (and their notes) adding to the American project, 
Germany would likely have completed the first atomic bomb.


> B. Although A above is certain to bring about a Nazi
> defeat, I believe that England would still allow the US to build
> up forces there (in England)

NB. It's Britain, not England (UK to be precise).  Scotland sent a 
whole division into battle in France, had it destroyed, then formed 
another in time for Alamein.  Or perhaps it should be Britain and the 
Commonwealth, since Canada contributed so much to the western theatre.


> and to launch an invasion from there
> since England would, upon seeing Germany devour all of Europe,
> fear a German invasion, and therefore, though perhaps nominally
> neutral, would probably cooperate as much with America in this 
> hypothetical situation as America did with England, historically,
> prior to historical American entry into the real war.

If Germany had the wherewithal to defeat Britain, she would have had 
the means with which to punish Britain for the slightest hint of co-
operation with America.  Instead of a neutral Britain, you'd have a 
Vichyite puppet government.


> America's
> industrial capacity was the match of the rest of the world
> combined, and would have remained untouched as it geared up for
> total war. Germany would be bombed, as historically done.
> C.

And where would the planes have flown from?  Aircraft carriers are 
nice, but are no match for a solid land-based airfield.  Land-based 
aircraft have greater capabilities than their carrier-based 
counterparts, and would have annihilated any bombing forces before it 
had the chance to inflict strategic damage.


> And even though I believe that either A. or B. above are
> sufficient to show that America could have defeated Germany, let
> me point out that America could have invaded Southern France,
> Sicily, or North Africa, all of which would have pitted an
> American invasion force against hostile and aggressive superior
> Axis air cover, but that is not too different from the situation
> of the actual Torch landings.

Lol.  I'd like to see you construct a scenario whereby America invades 
North Africa, Sicily and Southern France without friendly control of 
Gibraltar, Malta and the Middle-East.

America's industrial capacity was probably greater than Europe's 
combined.  However, I don't think the edge was sufficient for her to 
mount a successful campaign so far from home; supply lines and all 
that.  The US was able to defeat Japan thus because Japan, without 
resources coming in from her colonies, was fundamentally weak.  A 
European equivalent would be Britain.

But a Europe under the control of Germany would have been more than 
capable of repelling any American invasion.  Britain, and her control 
of the shipping routes (and her numerous ingenious scientists) was 
vital in allowing the American build up of power, and the ability to 
strike wherever the Allies wished.  The Soviets would probably have 
coped; their soldiers were used to making do with little, and could 
always loot from the civilian population if needed.


-- 
Cheers, ymt.
Email to: jim dot laker one at btopenworld dot com