Re: Awwwww, dammit...

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (AstroNerdBoy) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> "Lord Craxton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > "8-Bit Star" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > "Lord Craxton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > The purists are breeding again. >_< A bunch of them are trying to
>  attract
> > > > mates by squawking over the fast-forward in DBGT, and another bunch are
> > > > disparging Armitage III as a "dub-title". There also seem to be a group
>  of
> > > > disenfranchused Omega males squawking over CCS. Hadn't we had enough of
>  this
> > > > BS the last time? And the time before that? And the time before that?
>  None
> > > > of these retards ever get any respect, you'd think they'd have gotten
>  the
> > > > point by now...
> > > >
> > > > Hmm. Okay, decision time... do we just go on vacation until they quiet
>  down,
> > > > or grab our shotguns and our silly vest/hat combos and go huntin'? ^_^
> > > >
> > > >                                             -Lord Craxton
> > >
> > > I'd rather hear why you seem to despise those damn purists so much.  I
>  mean,
> > > there ARE times where they have a legitimate point (any criticism directed
> > > at 4Kids Entertainment, for example).
> > >
> > > What, did a purist dingo eat your baby?
> > 
> > Kinda. I guess this is as good a place as any to tell the story...
> > 
>  <snipped only for space>
> > And at some point I had an epiphany. Here I was, a fan of a series- a story-
> > whose guiding principles were what? Love, forgiveness, joy, friendship. Then
> > I looked at the newsgroup, and what did I see there? Anger, hatred, vicious
> > jerimiads, relentless feuding. And I thought to myself, "If these people
> > value this story so much, why do they not honor it's principles? And if the
> > principles are not important, what are they fighting over?" I turned it over
> > and over in my mind, and there was no resolution, no way the weave together
> > these two dissociated ideas within a consistent worldview. It didn't make
> > sense.
> > 
> 
> At this point, you turned it into a "religious" item rather than a
> discussion over topics ranging from changing an artists original work
> to dumbing down a story so American children won't be forced to think
> (and so more toys can be sold) to whatever (I wasn't there so I'm only
> guessing what the arguements were.  Now, a case can EASILY be made
> that the "puritst" also had made a religious item out of this.  But
> you did as well.  That's not a slam, that's just how I see things from
> your post.
> 
> > Of course it did make sense, and I figured it out eventually. *They didn't
> > care about the series*. The editing, however detrimental to the story it may
> > or may not have been, was just an excuse to make stratas out of the fandom-
> > making sure that the purists were in the top strata. For years anime had
> > been underground, and it's followers had cultivated a sense of personal
> > pride about their knowledge of something so beautiful that the common man
> > knew nothing about. But now the secret was out, and these people were no
> > longer special. They no longer could claim to be the "elite", the
> > "hardcore". What good is knowing something secret if any fool with an
> > internet connection and a desire to learn can find it out? So they tried to
> > reclaim their lost glory by inventing new kinds of eliteness. If the story
> > was private, there was no problem. But if the story became public, they
> > could no longer glorify themselves with their knowledge. They needed to find
> > a "better", a more "complete" version of the story to exalt themselves with.
> > 
> 
> Well, all groups have this.  Remember "alternative" music?  That was
> "underground" and "out of the mainstream".  It was a way for kids to
> say, "I'm different".  Yet the so-called "alternative" music went
> mainstream.  It became the pop music that it had bashed.  Suddenly,
> the early ones into that music scene because it wasn't in the
> mainstream found themselves no longer in a unique clique.  I had some
> co-workers back then who were just so pissed that their music artform
> had been so corrupted by corporations and they also talked of artists
> selling out.
> 
> So I can understand that the ones who saw anime by trading VHS tapes
> back in the day would be upset at seeing "Sailor Moon" domesticated. 
> If the series was so good that an American company wanted to release
> it in America, why change it?  Obviously at one point, you saw this
> too based on earlier statements you made.
> 
> But not everyone in the "purist" camp have the idea of being elite.
> I'm sure a number were just as you state.  But I'm also sure that a
> number saw things somewhat differently.  For example, should a classic
> work of literature be domesticated?  I'm not talking about things like
> "West Side Story" (the movie re-make of "Romeo and Juliet").  But
> should "Romeo and Juliet" by William Shakespear be domesticated in
> print form and sold as "Romeo and Juliet"?  Or maybe the main
> characters be renamed "Robert and Julie" because people might be
> confused over such archaich names like "Romeo" or "Juliet".  This may
> seem silly, but back in the day, this is what English distribution
> companies did.  And I can appreciate people not liking these changes
> and I can appreciate their passion for the issue.  The passion may be
> misplaced (certainly I know this from my own expericences), but
> sometimes passions override everything.
> 
> > I realised that this was a poor reason to spread hatred around an entire
> > newsgroup. But by that point, and probably from the beginning, I was but a
> > breeze against the maelstrom. The newsgroup was a firetrap- day and night,
> > threads raged, spewing hatred about DiC, about dubs, about dubbers, about
> > dubbies. Newbies came, and most of them knew only the dub. They were marked
> > as dubbies, and were flamed, and they either conformed and joined the
> > purists, or got tired of the rage and quickly left. Eventually, I left too.
> > 
> 
> Well, and that was a good thing on your part.  There are firestorms
> that blow up here frequently.  Sometimes I'll pop into a conversation
> but often times after I've said my mind, I just leave the thread and
> almost never return.  But I can very much appreciate your anger or
> irritation at the flames, name-calling, abuse, etc. on the part of
> either camp.  There's never any call for that kind of behavior.  Even
> when I'm in a discussion where I disagree with someone, I try to be
> civil, even if the person I'm responded to has just been very ugly
> with me.  It isn't easy, especially when the person who has slammed
> you is an elitist (even if they don't think they are).  With an
> elitist, everyone else is wrong, stupid, and beneath contempt.  Once
> in a blue moon, you might get one to conceed a minor point, but not
> often.  They take great delight in correcting even the tiniest
> mistakes perceived, even though everyone(1) knows what you were
> talking about.
> 
> (1)"*Everyone* will not understand what you are talking about.  Why
> don't you learn to write before you post your drivel here."
> 
> > I wound up here. And little by little, I see the same thing happening again-
> > with YuGiOh, with Armitage, and with Dragonball. Can you understand why I'm
> > so much against it? Why I don't want what happened in AFSM to happen again?
> > This isn't merely some fiction of my imagination- you can go to AFSM today
> > and see for yourself what unrestrained purism has wrought. Before you
> > condemn me for expressing my distaste, ask yourself: do you want RAAM to
> > become the same?
> > 
> >                                         -Lord Craxton
>  
> The reason for my response was with "Armitage".  Since I was the one
> who started a thread about the movie "Poly-Matrix" and "Dual-Matrix",
> I figure this is directed at me (correct me if I'm wrong).  Was my
> dislike for "Poly-Matrix" a qualification for a "purist"?
> 
> Some will label me a "purist" because I am pretty passionate about
> honorifics *in the subtitles*.  I think they should be in the
> subtitles.  I don't argue about their inclusion in English dubs
> because I do understand the anime market.  The overwhelming majority
> of anime fans prefer to watch anime in English, period.  It doesn't
> matter to them if the Japanese version (with accurate subtitles) is
> 100 times better than the English and increased your chances of having
> an orgasm on the spot (well, that's pushing it).  The fact of the
> matter is that most people *don't* want to read subtitles.  Certainly
> I can understand and appreciate this.  That's my primary motivation
> for learning Japanese (that and a planned vacation to Japan in 2005). 
> I want to be able to watch without reading.  :-D
> 
> I rented "Armitage III" first and loved it so much that I immediately
> went out and ordered the DVD for my collection.  I rented "Armitage
> III Poly-Matrix" thinking it was either a sequel to the OAV or a
> remake (like the movie "Escaflowne" was to the TV series).  OK, this
> was a remake, but I guess what offended me was that it was a cheap
> remake.  Rather than re-animate a whole new movie, they took a ton of
> animation from the original OAV.  So my irritation wasn't from a
> "purist" standpoint, but rather a cynical one.  I just saw it as a
> cheaper way to make a movie and attempt to score some quick cash by
> getting Kiefer Sutherland & Elizabeth Berkley on the project.  Had
> they not used any of the OAV animation, but simply redone this from
> scratch, I wouldn't have said anything other than write a review.
> 
> Anyway, while I may not agree with everyone who post here, they do
> have a right to post here.  The only posts I absolutely can't stand
> are the ones that go like "how tight is Asuka's pussy?" or "how many
> men can Sasami-chan take at one time?"  *rolls eyes*



Class act.  And good call with the above, now Craxton mentioned
that the "purists" don't love a series but are just trying to be 
elitist.  Maybe, I never met a purist in person but tell me is
a series still the same series if it had ALL the following happen 
to it:

1) title change
2) significant episode drops
3) significant cuts to footage, not just for BS&P purposes but
   to alter content to suit a different demographic
4) significant episode re-arrangement from a serial series 
5) significant dialogue changes to alter content
6) redone opening and closing