Re: Mormon chick, I have a question...

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:30:52 -0000, "Andrew R"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>"Harry Palms" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On 25 Nov 2003 19:19:15 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Garrison Hilliard)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Why aren't there any African-American leaders of the LDS, and why
>> >won't there ever be? I mean, outside of that Mormon dogma that
>> >Africans are cursed forever,
>> >enternally irredeemable and therefore cursed with black skin as
>> >written in the Book Of Mormon?
>> >
>> >Damn, you Mormons are fucked up.
>>
>> Oh come on that's not fair. There are lots of black leaders of the
>> church. Sure, no one in the big 15 is black. Not sure about the
>> seventy. But whenever the leaders can find a black guy they will try
>> to find a leadership position for him. Lets see, the church has Thurl
>> Bailey, that singer chick, and there was one black guy in my ward in
>> the past 25 years. So the church is making progress. LOL.
>>
>> The biggest problem is getting the old Mark E. Peterson and Bruce R.
>> McConkie fans to accept a black guy as their church leader. The
>> younger generation of mormons are mostly progressive on race issues,
>> the older generation unfortunately were poisoned for decades by
>> Peterson, McConkie and the racist teachings pre-1978. Even my parents,
>> who are nice folks, have a difficult time shedding their racist views.
>> They still believe black skin is the mark of Cain and a curse, 25
>> years after the doctrinal change.
>>
>>
>> What the church needs to do now is continue moving into the 20th
>> century.  It's the 21st century, but the church is just now emerging
>> into the 20th century culturally. Here are some other changes that
>> would help their image.
>>
>> Allow women to say opening prayer in Sacrament meeting. In November
>> 1978, the First Presidency sent out a letter to bishops and Stake
>> Presidents allowing women to pray in sacrament meeting, but it is
>> still a policy, maybe an 'unwritten order of things' to open sacrament
>> meeting with prayer from a priesthood holder. Women, currently, only
>> say the closing prayer, if they pray at all.
>>
>
>This is utter nonsense. Sisters regularly say both opening and closing
>prayers in sacrament meetings all over the world.

Maybe it was just my ward. Just a couple years ago my wife and I were
asked to give prayer in sacrament. We were told that I would open and
she would close. She was in the Primary presidency and liked to sneak
out during the last hymn to prepare the room and she asked if she
could say opening. We were told that only priesthood holders can give
opening prayer in sacrament meeting. Again, this may have only been
our bishop, but we moved last year and I've notices women don't say
opening prayers and I've noticed it in every ward I've visited. Since
I've started watching for it, I've never seen a woman give opening
prayer.


>> Allow women to give the final talk in sacrament. Currently, the final
>> talk is given to the highest ranking priesthood authority. If a
>> husnabd and wife are giving the talk, the man automatically goes last.
>> It's the unwritten order of things for a priesthood holder to have the
>> final say. (except for F&T meeting which is an entertaining and wacky
>> free for all) It's a little thing, but maybe treat women equally when
>> it comes to speaking to the congregation. (except for F&T meeting
>> which is an entertaining and wacky free for all)
>>
>
>Again, false. Women often give the final talk. It is usual for the "highest
>ranking" to go last, true. But that may be a sister.
>
>If the talks were, let's say, a youth, a male who was say a Sunday School
>teacher or counsellor in a Elders' Quorum presidency and the Young Women or
>Relief Society president, then the President would speak last.


Again, this has just been my observation. I could be wrong, but I've
never seen a woman give the last talk and when we were asked to give
the talk in our new ward last summer, the bishop told us that my wife
would give the first talk and I would give the last talk. It wasn't up
to us and since the prayer thing I've watched talks and noticed the
same thing.

>> Allow women to be Sunday School president. Another little thing that
>> bugs me. Women can teach sunday school but they can't be the Sunday
>> School President. THere is nothing in the CHI that says the Sunday
>> School PResident has to hold the priesthood.
>>
>
>Yes there is. Unfortunately I do not have my copy to hand, however if you
>insist I will post the wording at another time.

I've been told that it is not a requirement but it is just tradition.

>> Stop telling adults what movies they can watch and how many earrings
>> they can have and otherwise treating them like little children who
>> need help going potty. It's degrading and insulting to intelligent
>> adults to have petty little decisions like that made for them by other
>> adults.
>
>Giving, and receiving advice, are an adult way to go about things.
>
>The instruction relating to number of earings was given in a youth setting.
>It may well be applicable to adults, but there is no rule which members must
>abide by, nor any comeback if they do not.
>
>Andrew R.

It is very much applicable to adults or at least GBH didn't clarify it
because every TBM adult I know references this talk as a commandment
to them. Women no longer wear multiple earrings and tatoos are a big
no-no among adults based on this talk.