Re: LONG reply to "C." <jcalvin44@hotmail.com> ..... ( was What does "original finish" mean, exactly? )

"Ronnie McKinley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> In rec.antiques  "C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >The horizontal lines on the casing running around the case look Celtic to
> >me, however lacking the curved lines. Would this be one of the regional
> >features?
>
> Not sure to which horizontal lines you are referring?
>
>
> Maybe you are referring to the blind fret-work frieze between trunk and
> hood? On many Irish clocks we find a decorative frieze, but usually this

Yes, this is what I was referring to.

> In this example I think the blind fret-work is attempting to 'posh up'
> this case, by borrowing something in the Sheraton taste found more in
> keeping with a 'city' English made case. However, both Sheraton and
> Chippendale found good favour amongst Anglo-Irish furniture.

I see this now. I think when I looked at it, the idea  the clock was Irish
canted my view towards things Celtic, and I saw something that was not
there.

> >The leaf looks like an oak leaf. The Irish Oak is,  I believe, a separate
> >species from the English Oak. Is this one of the regional features?
>
> Heavy ornamentation between the swan-necks is a typical feature on Irish
> clocks. Grotesque masks, lion masks and of course (concave) shells are
> all found on Irish clocks. A Chippendale feature which found favour

I see this  now. From the picture and my poor old monitor, I thought  it was
a  leaf.

> This for example is a Dublin longcase.
> http://www.glenbourne-antiques.fsnet.co.uk/brassface1.jpg
>
> Showing heavy carving between and below the horns (along top of hood)
> and typical use of heavy dense dark mahogany. Typical of what would be
> referred to as an "Irish Chippendale" longcase.

I have heard this term used before, however never had a referance for it.
Thank you!

> >The time of George  the Third was also the time of Flood, and Gratton,
and
> >the Union Act of 1800. Maybe these roses and oak leaves mean something
> >different?  Maybe they just look pretty together.
> >
>
> Just look pretty I think :)  Act of Union motifs would generally have
> been reflected in the dial paintings and would have included th
e rose,
> thistle and shamrock.

Have you, in your experience, come across the shamrock as part of the
ornamentation very often? Where I am, we get great containers full of
Scottish antiques  shipped here on a regular basis, and I come across many
examples of the thistle on bed posts, finials, drawer pulls, etc. However, I
rarely see the shamrock. Once, at a sale in Eastern Canada I came across a
games table in that shape, designed  so that each player had a "leaf" as
part of their playing surface. However,  I don't recall any others.

>
> >The oval face is one I am  not used to. Is this in itself a regional
> >feature?
>
> Good question :)  but not to my knowledge. I've never owned an oval dial
> ever before, and in fact, never came across one before [in real life]
> expect for two or three examples illustrated in a book. I'd have assumed
> an oval dial to be an English feature, and more a city made longcase at
> that.

I have never come across an oval face, and could not locate one in my books.
I think it is a very handsome feature.

> > Most English clocks have the arched face. Knowing  there was some
> >historic tension at this time,  would some Irish clock makers have
crafted
> >this oval face specifically to be unlike the English clocks?
>
> Mmmmmm, I would like to think so :)  but no is probably the truth of it,
> in fact, maybe the opposite. I think the man who originally commissioned
> this clock was attempting to make a social fashion statement  ie: "look
> at me, I'm the rich one with the up to date London style "  :) not the
> more usual arched painted dial but a nice touch of neoclassical :)

Ah, well. It was a  good  thought, was it not? (smile)


> Having said all the above. I would point out this is not a city made
> case at all, but a piece of provincial work.

I have usually been able to spot provincial pieces three ways:  Proportion,
material, and detail. None of those would have helped me in this case. I
would have identified this as a city piece in short order, particularly in
the area of proportion. The clock is well designed, nothing looks to me "out
of place" or "inserted". The piece, as a whole, is full of presence. The
design, hanging on the oval motif, hangs together so well. Many provincial
pieces also are designed to  unabashedly celebrate their origin in one way
or another. My lack of contextual references would have also caused me to
fail here.

 However, forgetting about
> the oval dial, the case construction and build is typical of a
> provincial Ulster clock with features borrowed from the city maker (to
> posh it up - make it much more fashionable in style). In this case (as
> stated above) reeding, dental and return dental moulding, and reeded
> pillars all influence by the likes of John Wilson of Belfast, a well
> respected maker of his time.

Here is where I fell down. I really was, and still am, taken in by that
wonderful oval face. I should have paid more attention to the case.

> I of course have the advantage :)  as this clock is signed with maker
> and town location :)  One can't see that in the picture, and even in
> real life it's difficult to spot (all but worn off) but viewing at an
> appropriate oblige angle with the light just right, and there faintly,
> the maker and town can be seen. But an area which was (and still is)
> home too many a rich country squire and nice big country house with
> rolling acres.

Is the maker well known to you? Hopefully he has other things out there to
find.

>
> Out of interest here are a few typical Ulster arch painted dials.

The Belfast faces align perfectly with the confines of the hood. The Dromore
example has the face clipped, but equally clipped on four sides. However,
the Lurgan example appears clipped only on one side. Do you think this was
by design, or otherwise? As you said here,

  and the fit to the
> faceplate is also different.

Would they have done this on purpose?

> And finally the Scottish (and Borders)  .... well the Scots just use
> bucket loads of paint ... paint must have been cheap in Scotland :))

Yes. I have seen such clocks in the large shipping containers we receive
from Scotland.


> and btw :)  ... in the far left example in the above, how a case
> SHOULDN'T look. Dull flat and lifeless, before I got my hands on it

I don't know if its accurate, but I call such finishes "department store
specials"  because they remind me of what you might see on a new coffee
table or dining table right out of Sears.

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions.If you would
allow me, I would like to capture your images so I could view them in
Photoshop  and enjoy them even more, and reference them for the future.

Thank you again for such a good study on something I know so little about.


C.