LONG reply to "C." <jcalvin44@hotmail.com> ..... ( was What does "original finish" mean, exactly? )

In rec.antiques  "C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>"Ronnie McKinley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> In rec.antiques  "C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> C. you'll note its not the normal (painted) arched dial.
>>
>> http://www.glenbourne-antiques.fsnet.co.uk/image.jpg

>some snippage>

>The horizontal lines on the casing running around the case look Celtic to
>me, however lacking the curved lines. Would this be one of the regional
>features? 

Not sure to which horizontal lines you are referring?

The dental moulding (on the hood's swan-neck pediment) appear to have
been a feature used on many Belfast clock cases of this period, and the
short  horizontal dental moulding [which we in Ireland] generally refer
to as 'a return dental moulding' appear again to have been another
common characteristic on a Belfast case. Not that dental moulding is a
specific (northern) Irish feature just it was commonly used, and
commonly used on 'city' made clock cases of Ulster. The vertical reeding
[below the return dental mouldings) again seem to have been something
favoured in the north-eastern part of Ireland. Not that any of these
details didn't appear on English clocks.

>Would the maker have left out the curved lines so they would not
>detract from the bottom part of the case? The angled lines almost hint of
>those curved lines I am used  to seeing in similar Celtic designs.
>

Maybe you are referring to the blind fret-work frieze between trunk and
hood? On many Irish clocks we find a decorative frieze, but usually this
is a vertical reeded frieze, or else just plain. On Scottish longcased
clocks (for example) this frieze tends to be ogee or a cushion frieze.
In this example I think the blind fret-work is attempting to 'posh up'
this case, by borrowing something in the Sheraton taste found more in
keeping with a 'city' English made case. However, both Sheraton and
Chippendale found good favour amongst Anglo-Irish furniture.

>Roses for many speak of England, however I recall many references to wild
>Irish roses, for instance:
>
>In a field by a river
>my love and I did lie
>And on my naked shoulder
>she too proud to cry
>She said that I must leave her
>an icy tear she froze
>How could I melt the heart
>Of a Wild Irish Rose
>
>Would the roses on the horns be representative of the Irish Rose, and be one
>of the regional features?
>

Never really thought about that before :) roses to the horns seem to
appear on Irish, English and Scottish cases. On more affluent cases
these roses tended to be brass, as do the caps to reeded pillars. In
Ireland that was usually confined to Dublin or Belfast, or the 'city'
clock case, if you like.

>The leaf looks like an oak leaf. The Irish Oak is,  I believe, a separate
>species from the English Oak. Is this one of the regional features?

Heavy ornamentation between the swan-necks is a typical feature on Irish
clocks. Grotesque masks, lion masks and of course (concave) shells are
all found on Irish clocks. A Chippendale feature which found favour
particularly on southern Irish cases, especially Dublin.

This for example is a Dublin longcase. 
http://www.glenbourne-antiques.fsnet.co.uk/brassface1.jpg

Showing heavy carving between and below the horns (along top of hood)
and typical use of heavy dense dark mahogany. Typical of what would be
referred to as an "Irish Chippendale" longcase.

Excuse the dreadful lighting and exposure in this photo merely a record
short. I no longer own this one so I'm sorry can't retake it. Didn't
seem that important at the time :)

>The time of George  the Third was also the time of Flood, and Gratton, and
>the Union Act of 1800. Maybe these roses and oak leaves mean something
>different?  Maybe they just look pretty together.
>

Just look pretty I think :)  Act of Union motifs would generally have
been reflected in the dial paintings and would have included the rose,
thistle and shamrock.


>The oval face is one I am  not used to. Is this in itself a regional
>feature? 

Good question :)  but not to my knowledge. I've never owned an oval dial
ever before, and in fact, never came across one before [in real life]
expect for two or three examples illustrated in a book. I'd have assumed
an oval dial to be an English feature, and more a city made longcase at
that. 

> Most English clocks have the arched face. Knowing  there was some
>historic tension at this time,  would some Irish clock makers have crafted
>this oval face specifically to be unlike the English clocks?

Mmmmmm, I would like to think so :)  but no is probably the truth of it,
in fact, maybe the opposite. I think the man who originally commissioned
this clock was attempting to make a social fashion statement  ie: "look
at me, I'm the rich one with the up to date London style "  :) not the
more usual arched painted dial but a nice touch of neoclassical :)

Having said all the above. I would point out this is not a city made
case at all, but a piece of provincial work. However, forgetting about
the oval dial, the case construction and build is typical of a
provincial Ulster clock with features borrowed from the city maker (to
posh it up - make it much more fashionable in style). In this case (as
stated above) reeding, dental and return dental moulding, and reeded
pillars all influence by the likes of John Wilson of Belfast, a well
respected maker of his time.

Rather like Henry Ford the Irish weren't really offered anything much
out of the norm. Either arched painted dial with swan-neck pediment, or
the arched brass dial with the Chippendale swan-neck pediment. or square
flat-tops with brass or white face.  English longcases OTOH offered a
wide variety of styles ie: not just swan-neck pediment, but
architectural tops, London hoods, doomed tops, cathedral, painted,
lacquered and other fancy cases, and so on.

I of course have the advantage :)  as this clock is signed with maker
and town location :)  One can't see that in the picture, and even in
real life it's difficult to spot (all but worn off) but viewing at an
appropriate oblige angle with the light just right, and there faintly,
the maker and town can be seen. But an area which was (and still is)
home too many a rich country squire and nice big country house with
rolling acres.

Out of interest here are a few typical Ulster arch painted dials. Easily
spotted, as the Ulster painted dial was, as best described, in the
"Presbyterian" taste. Either straight out of the Bible or just sweet
overly sentimental, but with a bit of luck, a few shipping and sea
painted scenes. Also the dial of an Irish clock movement is slightly
bigger than its Scottish or English counterpart, and the fit to the
faceplate is also different.

http://www.glenbourne-antiques.fsnet.co.uk/faces.jpg


And finally the Scottish (and Borders)  .... well the Scots just use
bucket loads of paint ... paint must have been cheap in Scotland :))

http://www.glenbourne-antiques.fsnet.co.uk/scotsfaces.jpg


and btw :)  ... in the far left example in the above, how a case
SHOULDN'T look. Dull flat and lifeless, before I got my hands on it
someone else had just cleaned the life out of that case, hadn't been for
the dial and movement (and price :) ) I just would have passed on it :>)




-- 
Ronnie