Re: Period vs Modern instruments?

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> Jerry Kohl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > Alan Watkins wrote:
> > 
> > > >
> > > > Why don't you want to hear music the way its composers heard it, or
> > > > intended it to sound?
> > >
> > > Because in the case of my instrument (timpani) frequently it was out
> > > of tune and very badly played?
> > 
> > And, of course, today timpani are *never* played badly, or out of tune?
> 
> Yes, sometimes they are played badly and out of tune (and sometimes
> both) but I suspect it is less so today than it was then and I can
> assure you that you would not survive in a professional orchestra if
> you do either on a regular basis today.  There was no proper
> instruction, professional timpanists boasted of having "learned" the
> instrument in three days (most timpanists, today, would tell you they
> never STOP learning them).  You cannot even cope with teaching the
> various ways of holding the mallets in three days, never mind actually
> PLAYING the instrument.
> 
> Many composers of ancient times complained endlessly about the poor
> quality of the playing and that does not surprise me for you just
> cannot pick up a pair of sticks and play (even if may look that way,
> to some).  I can assure you it is not so.
> 
> What I think would be a good idea is for "modern" orchestras to play
> recordings with the numerical forces  in which they were originally
> played and then people might, perhaps, find you can get the same
> "balance" of sound.
> 
> I have done the ballet Le Petit Riens (Mozart) on modern instruments
> but with very few players and, personally, I thought it worked
> brilliantly.  I would like to see more of that but I don't want to go
> back to a period where the timpanist claimed to have learned the
> instrument in three days (and he was a fairly reluctant participant as
> well).
> 
> I have issues for my particular instrument which so far as I know no
> one bothers to deal with.  It is this: much "early" music and right up
> to the 1850/1860 period in France and Italy is written in tonic and
> dominant notes ONLY for the timpani...the two notes in which they make
> their first appearance, whether in the Overture or later.
> 
> In a considerable number of scores these notes are NEVER altered
> throughout the entire work despite (in many scores) there being
> adequate time to do so.  So equipped with my "authentic instruments"
> do I simply play out of tune in the other passages or do I lug one or
> two more hand tuned timpani on to the platform/pit (where that would
> be necessary) or (where I have the time) do I simply retune my simple
> pair of timpani so that I am not out of tune?
> 
> Or do I simply slavishly play what the composer wrote and play out of
> tune?
> 
> I ask the conductor, personally, and most (but not all) have said they
> would prefer it in tune.  This, by the way, is as "late" a problem in
> the orchestral field as Schumann.
> 
> Many composers I can think of loved the innovation of developments on
> the timpani and applauded them (not least for their ability to reach
> notes they had regarded as unobtainable or beyond the wit of the
> timpanist they had).  What does that say about the standard of playing
> in ancient times I wonder?
> 
> Kettledrums started out as battlefield instruments and everything I
> know about them tells me it took several centuries to shake that off. 
> In much of that period, new, innovative composers were writing "music"
> and wanted something better off them, understanding perhaps that their
> harmonics are truly wonderful and a great asset in any music.  I
> personally do not think the battlefield players were much into
> harmonics or "touch" which all of you enjoy today.
> 
> On several google threads there are people who comment upon and appear
> to like the beautiful tone that the timpani are capable of producing
> and some believe it enhances performances when played well, as I
> obviously do.
> 
> It took several centuries to get my instrument to where I think it is
> in appreciation today and while I do not know many HIP recordings I
> have frequently given performances of much early Czech music
> (particularly Masses) on hand tuned drums and personally think it
> important if I stay in tune with the organ and the choir (not to
> mention the rest of the (usually) fairly small orchestra) and if this
> involves me, perhaps, in cheating and introducing one or more
> additional (hand tuned) drums then that is what I do.
> 
> That's probably not authentic - it is often NOT authentic with the
> score (tonic/dominant etc) - but I think it sounds a whole lot better.
> 
> So, once again, I pose my question.  Do I play in tune or out of tune
> when confronted with an "authentic" score in which the composer either
> could not be bothered or did not have the means to get the notes
> played in tune?
> 
> Kind regards,
> Alan M. Watkins
> 

Excellent post, Alan. Thanks.

I never would have thought timpani could be so complicated, but it goes 
to show you the devil is in the details. (The reverse happens to me when 
people claim how easy it is to design a house....!) 

Makes me really appreciate the work going on in Bartok's Music for 
Percussion Strings and Celesta. I'm curious, is there is any retuning 
happening there? 

Marcello