Re: HELP! new praise & worship leader needs advice :-)

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 20:44:44 +0800, Joy wrote:

> "Mike, Doulos Iesous Christos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Troy Miller wrote:
>> > Mike, Doulos Iesous Christos wrote:
>> >> Joy wrote:
>> >>
>> >> If that the whole congregation, then I suppose it's okay. But,
>> >> if you're alienating the hoary head (Prov. 16:31) to please the
>> >> youth, then I would be worried.
>> >
>> > This seems a little one sided. Are you suggesting then that we
>> > please the hoary head and alienate the youth instead? Pretty soon
>> > we'd be all out of hoary heads!
>>
>> Don't you mean 'all out of youth'?
> 
> No, I think Troy meant that soon all the hoary heads would be dead heads
> anyway.... well, that's how I read it. :o)

Oh, well, in that sense, by the time all the existing hoary heads became
dead heads, the youth would have become the hoary heads.

Dead heads ... heh ... Greatful .... nah, not going there <g>

> 
>> >>> No offence, but I became a Christian, not old.
>> >
>> > Joy, that's almost exactly the same thing I was thinking!
>> >
>> >>> Accepting Christ as my savior didn't take away my love of R&B
>> >>> or funk or metal rapcore. I know that to many young people,
>> >>> these are the only types of music that they can relate to.
>> >
>> > Amen, sister.
>> >
>> >> I used to think that way, when I was a young Christian, and
>> >> mostly
>> >
>> > For what it's worth, this is one of the most arrogant, annoying
>> > ways to start a discussion. Yes, wisdom often comes with age, but
>> > it's not a direct correlation. There are PLENTY of stupid old
>> > people, and certainly some young people who are pretty
>> > spiritually mature.
>>
>> It's annoying because the world teaches and preaches that young is
>> best. It's everywhere. Old is out, so someone who is
>> chronologically nearly 50 is, in the world's view, nearly used up
>> and not to be taken seriously.
> 
> This is nonsense. It is seen as annoying and arrogant because it assumes age
> = wisdom, which is not true. Not implying that you are foolish, but to
> assume that just *because* you are older, you are inevitably wiser is
> prideful and untrue. Children have been known to lead and teach adults, even
> in Scripture.
> 
>> A conflict insues when one also learns that that old fart has over
>> 30-years of walking with the Lord. Scripture teaches that wisdom
>> comes with age and that young believers shouldn't be given
>> authority in the church, lest it go to their heads, and pride takes
>> them out. (I Tim. 3:6)
> 
> Young *believers* are not to be given authority for this reason, but this
> does not exclude the chronologically young. I have seen ten-year olds
> prophesy over the elderly, and teenagers lead whole churches in bible study
> because all the older folk are illiterate. If you look at the next chapter
> of the scripture that you refer to, Paul tells the young leader, Timothy,
> not to allow others to look down on him simply because he is young. In the
> same way, older people should read this as a suggestion on how to behave
> towards their chronologically younger brethren and sistren.

I wasn't refering to chronological age; just making a comparison on how
chronological age in the worldly mind is viewed and how spititual maturity
should be viewed, regardless of chronological age.

Timothy's flock consisted of young believers, in spitirual maturity, even
though many of them were old physically and apparently Timothy was
concerned about their resenting him.
> 
>> The spiritual world tends to work mostly backwards from the carnal,
>> material world and it takes time with the Lord to learn the
>> differences.
> 
> This is true, but lording your age over another in order to give your
> arguments more weight is not 'spiritual'. As Troy said, being a
> Christian for a long time does not immediately mean that one is wiser or
> more mature. This is not a personal attack, but I am trying to point out
> a fallacy in your argument.

I don't "lord" it over anyone, Joy. Under these circumstances, how else
will you, or anyone else know that I'm not just a little baby Christian,
with a bent for stringing letters and words together, but lacking even
enough wisdom and learning to fill a thimble?

If people are going to grow and mature, they need to be taught by people
who have already been taught. Babies don't learn to read and write by
taking advice only from their peers, do they?

> 
> <snip>
>> >> I attend the local Calvary Chapel because the pastor teaches the
>> >> Word of God. As a card-carrying member of the "Frozen Chosen", I
>> >> really don't have any other alternatives. Mainstream churches long
>> >> ago tossed the Word out.
>> >
>> > You know, you get into dangerous territory when you make sweeping
>> > generalizations about "mainstream churches."
>>
>> Dangerous territory? No I'm not; not in the least. There isn't a church
>> that is numbered among the NCC or WCC (this is what "mainstream
>> churches" refers to), that believes the Bible is the complete,
>> sufficient, inerrant as originally given, Word of God; to be
>> interpreted literally. Not the Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists,
>> Episcopalians; There are others, including the Catholics, as well. But,
>> this isn't the place for a detailed analysis of the apostate churches.
> 
> Nobody interprets the Bible literally. I am pretty certain that even you
> don't interpret every single verse of Christian scripture "literally".
> It has poetry and verse and songs in it. Do you interpret the Psalms
> literally? Is God a bird with feathers and wings? Or a rock? Or a tower?
> No.
> 
> There are plenty of Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Episcopalian
> churches that believe that the Word of God is complete, inerrant,
> sufficient, and to be taken literally (for the most part, feathers and
> wings aside.) The thing is that churches within these large
> denominations vary. There are the conservative, evangelical, liberal,
> ridiculous, sensible. You just have to find the good ones. Sweeping
> generalizations are slanderous and harmful.

There are well established rules for the interpretation of all literature,
and the Bible is literature; albeit, the most unique piece of litature in
the world, but it's still litature. In a nutshell, I interpret the Bible
literally, unless the immedate context indicates that a type or an
allegory is indicated. That has made me creationist, dispensational,
somewhat Calvinistic on election, premillennial, and pretribulational.

Because God is consistant, His Word is also consistant, and requires
consistancy in it's interpretation.

If you're one of those who doesn't appreciate scholarship in the study of
the Word, then I'm afraid we'll be locking horns a lot in matters of
doctrine.

As for that list of denominations, unless they state they are independant,
as a lot of Baptist churches do, then all you need to know about them can
be found in their central organizational documents and statement of faith.
For instance, the Episcopalians are on the verge of a split over the
homosexual issue, but because they ordain women as ministers, they are
still butting heads with Paul's instructions not to do that.

>
> <snip>
>> I have no desire to be hostile towards anyone, either. While I am
>> passionate and forceful at times, it's because I'm interested in
>> teaching something I believe to be important, not dictating what other
>> people think or do.
> 
> Are you open to learning from the same people you're 'teaching' too? I
> have some pretty strong opinions, but I've gotten lots of insight from
> the opposing views and different opinions that I've read here as well.

If the taught person has something to teach me, that the Holy Spirit has
given them, which I can confirm from the Word, of course.

If your opinions are based upon Holy Spirit inspiration, then they can be
confirmed with the Word. If not then, while they may be interesting or
useful in some cases, I won't give them the same weight as I would give
solid godly counsel.

Peace,

Mike

-- 
I believe Christianity should be intelligent; Not as the wooden-headed
fundamentalists believe, who have made the commandment of God
of none effect by their traditions (Matt. 15:6).
Forever, oh Lord, Thy Word is Settled in Heaven.