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Archive-name: apple2/faq/part7
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-modified: 2003/10/1
URL: http://home.swbell.net/rubywand/A2FAQs1START.html
The comp.sys.apple2 Usenet newsgroup Apple II FAQs originate from
the Ground Apple II archive, 1997-2003. Administrator: Steve Nelson
Csa2 FAQs-on-Ground ref: Csa2DSKETTE.txt rev067 October 2003
Diskettes
001- How many tracks can I use on a 5.25" diskette?
002- Can I use high-density 3.5" and 5.25" diskettes on my A2?
003- How can I tell DD from HD diskettes if they are not labeled?
004- Some old 5.25" disks with splotches don't boot. What gives?
005- How can I defragment a diskette and what is the speed gain?
006- Why aren't my old diskettes recognized by GS/OS?
007- Can I read Apple II diskettes on my PC?
008- Where the heck can I buy double density 3.5" & 5.25" diskettes?
009- Where can I find out about different floppy disk formats?
010- How can I copy disks?
011- How can I read Apple II 5.25" floppies on a Mac?
012- Can I create standard 3.5" IIgs diskettes on a Mac?
From: Rubywand
001- How many tracks can I use on a 5.25" diskette? So far,
I've heard 35, 36, and 40. What's the actual number?
The standard number of tracks on a 5.25" diskette is set by DOS 3.3 and ProDOS at
35, numbered 0-34 ($00-$22 in hexadecimal).
The original Disk ][ drive can usually handle 36 tracks with no problem. Newer
5.25" drives can handle 40 tracks.
Various modified versions of DOS 3.3 allow using 36 tracks and a few allow using
40 tracks. These mods, especially the 36-track versions, were fairly popular before
the advent of 3.5" diskettes when an extra track made a noticable difference in
capacity. However, unless the extra capacity is vital for some specific application,
it is best to stick with 35 tracks in order to retain full compatibility with disk
utilities (such as Copy II Plus) and other wares.
----------------------------
002- Can I use high-density 3.5" and 5.25" diskettes on my Apple II?
I did some magnetization tests on Double Density (800kB) and High Density (1.4MB)
diskette surfaces. The tested DD surface produced more than twice the deflection of
the tested HD surface. Clearly, there is a big difference in signal levels required to
reliably store data on HD vs. DD.
In fact, 5.25" HD (1.2MB) diskettes will not work at all on Apple Disk ][ drives.
The 3.5" HD's may work fine on your 800k drives; or, they may just seem to work fine.
Either way, there's no question: a drive optimized for DD will not be optimized for
HD. If you'd rather not 'roll the dice' on your software collection, stick with Double
Density diskettes.
____________________________
From: Rubywand, George Rentovich, Mad ATARI user alternate, Joel
003- How can I tell the difference between unlabeled DD and HD diskettes?
3.5" HD (1.4MB) diskettes come with a square notch in the upper left corner. DD
(800kB) 3.5" diskettes do not come with this notch. In the early days of PC computing,
some PC users punched or drilled notch holes in DD diskettes and used them as HD
diskettes. If a 3.5" diskette has a circular notch in the upper left corner, it is
likely to be a DD diskette.
DD 5.25" (360kB) diskettes look very much like HD 5.25" (1.2MB) diskettes;
however, HD diskettes seem to almost never have a hub ring, while DD diskettes usually
do. The hub ring may be white paper, etc. and easy to spot or cut from the same
material as the diskette and barely noticeable. This difference has been mentioned by
Peter Norton (of Norton Utilities fame) in one of his books.
The hub ring makes it easier for the Apple Disk Drive II and other older DD 5.25"
drives to clamp and hold the diskette. Older DD drives also tend to damage the center
when there is no hub. If the hub ring of a DD diskette has fallen off due to age, it's
a good idea to transfer the contents to a new diskette.
Otherwise, about the only observable difference is that DD diskette surfaces
often exhibit a more brownish cast whereas HD diskette surfaces are generally dark
grey or black.
The surest test for 5.25" diskettes is to place the diskette into an Apple Disk
II 5.25" drive and try to do a DOS 3.3 format. If it formats okay, it is almost
certainly a DD diskette. (This test will not always work with the newer 40-track
drives. Some of these can get through a format with an HD diskette.)
____________________________
From: Rubywand
004- Recently I found that some of my old 5.25" disks would
not boot. A check showed splotches etched on the surface
of the media. What's going on?
As you may recall, a number of the classier 5.25" diskette brands employed (still
employ?) a lubricant on their jacket liners. While the lube worked to reduce drag and
noise, it also, evidently, served as a growth medium for a particularly nasty plastic
and/or oxide-eating fungus!
It's probably a good idea to check each of your old diskettes. Immediately backup
any diskettes with splotchy discolorations.
----------------------------
005- How can I defragment a diskette and what is the speed gain?
You can defragment a diskette by doing a File Copy of all files to a blank
formatted* diskette or RAM disk which is the same size as the original. The Files on
the copy diskette or RAM disk will be almost completely unfragmented.
*Note: If the diskette is supposed to be bootable, the target disk should be
INITialized for the DOS (e.g. DOS 3.3 or ProDOS) used on the original before doing the
copying. For DOS 3.3, you INIT a disk. For ProDOS, you can do an "Initialize" from the
IIgs Finder or a "FORMAT" using Apple's ProDOS FILER utility or a ProDOS version of
Copy II+.
A whole-disk copy back to the original completes the process. Tests show that
this method produces much speedier diskettes than using a utility intended for
optimizing hard disks.
For a nearly full 'workhorse' diskette which has seen may deletions and
additions, you can expect the File Copy defragmentation method to yield a 30% to 40%
improvement in access speed.
----------------------------
006- Why aren't my MECC and many other old diskettes recognized
by GS/OS and mounted on the Finder display?
The problem you mention is fairly common. GS/OS via its FSTs has pretty strict
definitions for what qualifies as a valid DOS or ProDOS diskette. For example,
perfectly good 36-track DOS 3.3 diskettes will not be mounted by the Finder just
because the number of tracks is 36 instead of the expected 35.
Naturally, copy-protected diskettes have practically no chance of being
recognized. Almost certainly, this is the reason the Finder will not mount your MECC
disks.
You can, still, run software from most copy-protected diskettes by just booting
them.
____________________________
From: Chris Norley
007- Can I read Apple II diskettes on my PC?
A while back I requested some information regarding the reading of Apple II
floppies by an PC. There was a hugh response both in solutions and requests for a
summary of solutions.
ORIGINAL POST:
We have some old data from a small NMR spectrometer that was run from an Apple
IIe. The same spectrometer is now run from a DOS machine and we'd like to be able to
access the old data from the PC.
Does anyone know of or possess some utility to allow the data from the 5 1/4"
Apple II floppies to be read from the PC? Any hints as to program names, ftp sites,
etc. would be greatly appreciated.
SUMMARY OF RESPONSES:
--------------------
>>From [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Les Ferch
It can't be done with software alone. There is a card called the MatchPoint PC card
that will let you read and write Apple II DOS, ProDOS, and CP/M disks on a PC 5.25"
360K drive. We used to have one installed in an XT here and it worked fine.
The other common way of moving the data is to connect an Apple II to a PC using a null
modem cable and using comm programs such as Kermit to transfer the data.
------------------
Curt Schroeder
It is not possible for a 5.25" PC floppy drive to read Apple II disks. They use
incompatible recording technologies. Your options are to get your data into an Apple
that can write MS-DOS 3.5" disks (Apple IIgs or Macintosh) or transfer via serial link
(either via modem or null-modem cable). The other possibility is to use an Apple II
equipped with a PC Transporter and either has a 3.5" drive or 5.25" PC floppy drive(s)
attached.
-------------------
Michael Hoffberg
About a year ago, I picked up card for my ibm made by TrackStar. It is basically an
apple II that sits inside your IBM. When you enable it, it can boot off an apple
drive, it uses the ibm keyboard and monitor.
When I go home I only use it to play moon patrol (I am too lazy to find my other
games).
In any case, I think that it is possible to transfer files between the ibm and apple
with the card. I have never tried it though.
------------------
Fred R. Opperdoes
Any Apple II (E or GS) owner having an Applied Engineering PC Transporter card is able
to do the job easily. It is maybe not easy to find such a person in your neighborhood.
Another possibility would be that you ask someone with an Apple IIGS to have your 5
1/4" Dos 3.3 or Prodos disk transcribed to a 3.5" Prodos disk. Every IIGS owner would
be able to do so. Files on such disks can then easily be converted to MsDOS files on
an MsDOS disk on a Macintosh using the Apple File Exchange Utility that comes with
every modern Mac.
-------------------
Leo Connolly
I don't think this is doable. There are limitations in the PC drive hardware which
make it impossible to read Apple II disks. (And the same is true in reverse, for
exactly the same reasons).
I suggest the following.
Transfer the Apple II data to a 3.5" disk. This is easy on a IIGS if you use a
utility such as Copy II Plus.
Use Apple File Convert on a Macintosh to convert the Apple II files to MS-DOS format.
Caution: older versions of this utility cannot handle MS-DOS 3.5" disks, but the newer
ones can.
Or: send your data through a modem from the Apple to the PC.
------------------
Leonard Erickson
It can't be done without extra hardware. The Apple II didn't use a disk controller
chip, it used an odd circuit instead. So, machines using the industry standard
controller chips can't read Apple disks.
You'll need a COPYIIPC deluxe option board or some such. Central Point Software used
to sell them.
Another approach is to track down one of the add-on boards that was essentially an
Apple II on a PC card. It hooks to the 5.25" drive and plugs into the bus. And you've
got an Apple II in your PC.
-----------------
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The cheapest method to get the data would to do a "NULL MODEM" transfer between the
two computers.
----------------------------
From: Peter Maloney
You could use an Apple Turnover, a PC/XT card that allows older IBM floppy drives to
read/write Apple 5.25" diskettes. It was made by Vertex Systems Inc..
____________________________
From: Rubywand, Brian Hammack, Jay, Joan Sander, Simon Williams
008- Where the heck can I buy the double density (DD) 5.25" and
3.5" diskettes required for my Apple II drives?
Here are places to try ...
Grace Ashley (352-748-7739, http://apple2software.htmlplanet.com/ ) sells Apple II
educational software and 'blank' 5.25" diskettes
Albert Franklin (email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) sells 5.25" DS/DD diskettes.
XDR2.com ( http://www.xdr2.com/ click on "Disks") sells 5.25" and 3.5" DD diskettes in
bulk (e.g. 50 3.5" for $13).
Meritline.com ( http://store.yahoo.com/meritline/floppydisk.html ) sells 3.5" DD
diskettes in bulk (e.g. 100 for $10).
Peripheral Manufacturing, Inc (800-468-6888; email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) sells 5.25" DD
diskettes in 10 packs ($2.95) and 50 packs (with sleeves, $15.00)..
Commodore 64 & 128 Products ( http://www.oldsoftware.com/Commodore.html search the
page for disks for sale) sells 5.25" & 3.5" DD diskettes.
Check the non-Apple sections on eBay. Sometimes you'll see boxes of a thousand disks
going for the cost of shipping -- if they're listed outside of Vintage Apple they seem
to go a lot cheaper.
Thrift shops: you may find packs of used 5.25" DD diskettes at bargain prices.
____________________________
From: David Wilson
009- Where can I find out about different floppy disk formats?
Here is a table of floppy disk formats I have built up over the years:
disk speed rate encode trk sector trk/hd size disk
size" rpm kb/s scheme kb cnt*sz count kBytes type
---------------------------------------------------------------------
8 360 500 FM 41.67 26*128 77/1 260 SSSD (8)
8 360 500 FM 41.67 26*128 77/2 520 DSSD (8)
8 360 500 MFM 83.33 26*256 77/1 520 SSDD (9)
8 360 500 MFM 83.33 26*256 77/2 1040 DSDD (9)
5.25 300 250 FM 25.00 8*256 40/1 80 SSSD
5.25 300 250 FM 25.00 8*256 40/2 160 DSSD
5.25 300 245 GCR 49.00 16*256 35/1 140 SSDD (1)
5.25 300 250 MFM 50.00 8*512 40/1 160 SSDD (3)
5.25 300 250 MFM 50.00 9*512 40/1 180 SSDD (3)
5.25 300 250 MFM 50.00 8*512 40/2 320 DSDD (3)
5.25 300 250 MFM 50.00 9*512 40/2 360 DSDD (3)
5.25 300 250 MFM 50.00 9*512 80/2 720 DSDD
5.25 360 300 MFM 50.00 9*512 40/2 360 DSDD (4)
5.25 360 300 MFM 50.00 9*512 80/2 720 DSDD
5.25 360 500 MFM 83.33 15*512 80/2 1200 DSHD (4)
3.5 300 250 MFM 50.00 9*512 80/2 720 DSDD (5)
3.5 300 250 MFM 50.00 5*1024 80/2 800 DSDD (2)
3.5 var var GCR var var*512 80/2 800 DSDD (7)
3.5 300 500 MFM 100.00 18*512 80/2 1440 DSHD (6)
3.5 var var GCR var var*512 80/2 1600 DSHD (A)
3.5 300 1000 MFM 200.00 36*512 80/2 2880 DSED
(1) Apple ][
(2) Applix
(3) IBM PC
(4) IBM PC/AT
(5) IBM PS/2 25,30
(6) IBM PS/2 > 30
(7) Macintosh & Apple //
(8) IBM 3740
(9) IBM System 34
(A) AE 1.6MB drive on Apple //
____________________________
From: Rubywand
010- How can I copy disks?
Neither ProDOS nor DOS 3.3 includes a built-in Disk Copy command. So, you will
need to use some kind of copy utility. The ProDOS standard Utilities Disk includes a
Disk Copy option. The DOS 3.3 System Master disk includes a Disk Copy program named
"COPYA".
The above options are okay for copying regular 35-track, 16-sector diskettes
which are not copy protected. The newer version of the ProDOS Utilities may be
adequate for copying many 3.5" diskettes, too.
The best general purpose disk copying and file management utility for 8-bit Apple
II's is Copy II Plus. It can copy unprotected disks fairly quickly and, using
built-in parms, it can make copies of many copy protected disks. Version 5.5 is the
last DOS 3.3-only version and is a bit better for use with DOS 3.3 disks. Versions 7.2
through 8.3 are good for both DOS 3.3 and ProDOS disks including 3.5" diskettes.
The best copy-only utility for most non copy protected 5.25" (DOS 3.3, ProDOS,
...) diskettes is Disk Muncher. It is fast; and, the current version will try to copy
36 tracks (used on some diskettes) and includes verification checks. A good fast-copy
utility for 3.5" diskettes is Diversi-Copy.
You can find Disk Muncher, Copy II Plus, and other utilities mentioned above on
several archives as separate files, on disks in ShrinkIt whole-disk (.sdk) form, and
on emulator disk images (.dsk files). For instance, see the Disks folder in Ground's
Useful Stuff folder at ...
ftp://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/apple2/useful.stuff/Disks/ .
If a lot of the software you need to copy is from MECC, a good try is to get an
MECC copy program by John Kielkopf named "meccopy". It makes deprotected copies of
many MECC diskettes. You can find it as meccopy.sdk on Ground at ...
ftp://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/2/apple2/apple8/Utils/ .
You can use the utilities mentioned above on a IIgs just as you would on an 8-bit
Apple II. However, for copying 3.5" disks, the easiest way is to use the simple 'drag
and drop' capabilities available via the usual Finder desktop.
____________________________
From: Streaming Wizard, Phil Beesley
011- How can I read Apple II 5.25" floppies on a Mac?
Reading Apple II 5.25" floppies on a Mac requires the addition of special
hardware. One company, Kennect, did make two drives that would handle this trick: the
Drive 360 and the Drive 1200. They were primarily meant for reading 5.25" PC disks but
were also advertised as having the ability to read Apple II DOS 3.3 and ProDOS
floppies. Both required a device called the "Rapport", which plugged into the Mac's
external floppy port and also gave the internal 3.5" drive the ability to read 720K PC
disks.
If your Mac is an LC or some later model with the LC Processor Direct Slot (PDS)
and it supports 24-bit memory addressing, you may be able to plug in a IIe LC Card (or
"IIe Emulation Card"). This, basically, installs an Apple //e in your Mac to which an
Apple II 5.25" Platinum drive can be connected. For more information, see Main Hall
Q&A #14.
____________________________
From: Supertimer
012- Can I create standard 3.5" IIgs diskettes on a Mac?
You are most likely to succeed with an older Mac. However, even older Macs that
have built in compatible 800k (DD) drives will often produce a IIGS diskette that is
not quite right-- such as a diskette that should boot gives the "Unable to Load
ProDOS" error message.
If you have an older Mac that should write standard IIgs disks properly and it
does not, clean your Mac drive and keep trying. For instance, you may need to extract
a diskcopy archive a few times for the disk to write properly.
Newer Macs are, generally, less likely to succeed. Some Macs, such as iMacs with
a floppy drive option, cannot format IIgs-compatible 800k diskettes.
----------------------------
From: Simon Williams
There was a thread discussing the impossibility of creating bootable ProDOS disks
from a Mac with a 'force-feed' floppy drive. Seems it ain't necessarily so.
Using Bernie ][ the Rescue on a G3 iMac with a cheap USB floppy, I first create a
Diskcopy 4.2 800KB image, which I copy to a 1.44 MB diskette with the finder.
Then I transfer the disk image to a PowerPC 6100/66 which has the non-auto-inject disk
drive (running System 7.5)... copy the image to the HD. Format an 800KB ProDOS disk
with the finder and then use DiskDup+ to copy the image to the floppy...
So far it's worked perfectly. I've made both GS/OS 5 & 6 and ProDOS startup disks
this way... :) The one oddity is that GS-formatted disks take a long time to write,
whereas the ones formatted under MacOS seem to write much quicker...
DiskDup+ is the key. I wondered myself why I hadn't tried Diskcopy... so I tried
it -- without success.
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