Re: Kids should work...

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kane wrote:
> On 3 Dec 2003 16:41:38 GMT, Ignoramus11065
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kane
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Okay, so to you it is a matter of definition, a person who wants as
>>>>much as he can get away with is dysfunctional. 
>>> 
>>> No no..you misunderstand. To want the entire universe is healthy,
>>> normal, and good in the child of a certain age. 
>>
>>why is it not normal for any adult?
> 
> It is good and normal, as it is good and normal to curtail the urge to
> the legal and morally defensible.
> 
> The child learns this one way or another. Pain parenting disrupts the
> learning of adult responsibility and results in little problems such
> as Enron and degradation of the environment.

it is not obvious to me that Enron was a resul tof pain parenting. 

Enron was a result of reckless investing where investors wanted to be
lied to rather than informed. Someone was found who was willing to
lie.

>>> really understand what is going on, but nature demands she learn
>>> it...hence we get the "terrible twos." All the difficulties for the
>>> parent are nothing compared to the difficulties for the child.
>>
>>I frankly do not see much difficulties so far.
> 
> If you aren't a punishing controller then I wouldn't expect you to.
> You either know or have life experience from your own childhood that
> doesn't set off any alarm bells to "correct" on the scale many
> parents do.

Exactly. 

When I say that punishment may be necessary etc, bear in mind that I
punish my son only very inrequently and mildly (as in taking the
offending thing away).

>>not playing with the child.
> 
> A child's play is a child's work, her educational work. Not helping
> her is tantamount to someone disrupting your work and education.

so let it be disrupted for 10 minutes. big deal.

>>if he destroys something that he was told not to destroy,
> 
> He may not have understood. HIS imperative is to explore. Yours,
> quite frankly as far as nature is concerned, is seconday or less. A
> great deal of the potential of human beings is lost by subversion
> enforcing our wishes on children.
> 
> Those who do more sitting back and watching and managing the
> enviroment for maximum interaction with minimum safety risks see
> little miracles. Have you read Magical Child, Joseph Chilton Pearce?

no I have not, what is it about?

>>not to fetch
>>him a second item.
> 
> Or to get items less destructable or that can be cheaply sacrificed.
> You don't want him to do his juggling practice with your little glass
> unicorn collection...should you belt him, or give him some bean bags?

what if he wants to do jumping with unicorns and not with available
bean bags.

> Whining kids whose parents simple cut them off teach some very
> interesting escalations, including stealing what they want, or finding
> others more easily whined at (I've known a few women that went from
> man to man with that strategy). In our circle they are a verb. "Oh,
> please don't try to Jane me."
> 
> No, I fixed him by asking if he'd like to learn how to ask so people
> will listen and comply more. He said yes.
> 
> I said, lowering my voice deeply, "ASK LIKE THIS."
> 
> He had been wanting an icecream. 
> 
> What came out of him was a bass foghorn sounding, "DAAAADDDDYYYY,
> CAAAAAN IIIII HAAAAVE AAAAN IIIIIICECREEEEEAM?" People nearby listen
> were nearly ROTLFTAO.
> 
> But it worked. And he and I improved our relationship. 

I do that all the time also.

>>thanks, I bought it... $1.73.
> 
> I'm unaware that it's out anywhere at that price. Where did you find
> it? Last I heard it was in hard back only and ran about $20.

used at amazon.

>>> Dr. Thomas Gordon's Parent Effectiveness Training, or PET. 
>>
>>I read that one...
> 
> Did you understand it, and did you find anyone to practice the skills
> with...not a child, an adult partner?

I practice it on my son and sometimes wife. It is kind of interesting.

> Not if you respond to his spilling activity with more acceptable
> spilling activity for learning. If you take it away and ignore the
> need to experiment with the physical environment you are not getting a
> better relationship and you are in fact risking it.

sure.

> Ever wonder why so many blame their parents for their own failings.
> Could be they are on to something, but I notice that if the person
> came from a punishment household they still do the same things to
> their kids.

what is learned in childhood is extremely powerful.
>>try carrying around a 50 lbs sack of sand for one day, all day, and
>>come back and tell me if that was not punishment.
> 
> If that sack was empty when I began and it took five years to get to
> 50lbs in roughly equal installments, I am merely strong now. I'm not
> very discomfited by it at all.
> 
> If what you say is true when we hit fifty pounds as a child we should
> be in great discomfort.
> 
> I am about 30lbs over what I would prefer right now. Still others
> might envy me as I carry it on a 6.2 frame with considerable muscle
> mass under it. I hardly notice it. Pants tightness is probably the
> only discomfort.
> 
> The same would be true in other cultures where 50lbs more weight than
> I would like is common and admired.

even in such cultures you would feel better without extra fat... fat
does not know kn which culture it is. it just hangs on you!

>>>>Example: you cheat on your spouse, and ruin your
>>>>marriage. It's a punishment.
>>> 
>>> Clue, some people, so pain based in their upbringing, seek things
> for
>>> gratification and are willing to take the risk no matter how much
> pain
>>> to themselves and others might ensue.
>>
>>and they get punished
> 
> Really?
> 
> I notice you forgot to put in that they got caught. There is a part of
> you that knows the truth, even with you execute your sophistry.

so, they get caught and punished.

>>I do not remember specific studies
>>etc, nor do I have any desire to spend time finding it out, but I
>>remember that I have seen several of them when I was studying
>>economics.
> 
> The researchers would very likely have a thorough mix, given the 90 vs
> 10 percent ration, out of any demographic they drew their sample from.
> Highly unlikely they were looking at ANY adults that experienced non
> pain parenting.

correct.

i