Re: So Long Judge Moore, We'll Miss You

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Malcolm Kirkpatrick) wrote:

>:| Purely in atheists' self-interest, seems to me, they would
>:|be smart to model tolerance. 

Like the dissenters of 1700s?

Tolerance, huh?

 Tolerance is not freedom.

Madison's battle agaisnt the word toleration:

41). Topic: Declaration of Rights and Form of Government of Virginia (in
depth)  [1-18-00] [part II]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_574362733

(42). Topic: Madison and Va Declaration of Rights  (in depth) [1-18-00]
[part III]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_574362734

Virginia Declaration of Rights (in depth) [1-18-00] [part IV]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=o2i98scdl00d11lciri6g6qvevgp9sodqg%404ax.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl527410419d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=o2i98scdl00d11lciri6g6qvevgp9sodqg%404ax.com

(44). Topic: Committee's Proposed Article on Religion (in depth)
 [1-18-00] [part V]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_574362737

Madison's Amendments to the Declaration of Rights (in depth) [1-18-00]
[partVI]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=vph98soge0qgmb3en18e26j4iifv8d6rqs%404ax.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl827347558d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=vph98soge0qgmb3en18e26j4iifv8d6rqs%404ax.com



(49). Topic: George Mason, Madison and the Virginia Declaration of Rights
 [1-20-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_575408885






(50). Topic: toleration
 [1-24-00] [I]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930036

(51). Topic: toleration [1-24-00]  [II]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930037

(52). Topic: toleration [1-24-00]  [III]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930038

(53). Topic: toleration [1-24-2000] [IV]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930039

(54). Topic: toleration [1-24-00]  [IV]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576956927

(55). Topic: toleration [1-24-00]  [V]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930040

(56). Topic: toleration [1-24-00]  [VI]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930041

(57). Topic: toleration [1-24-00]  [VII]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930042

===========================================================================
What is Religious Freedom?

Religious freedom is the notion that people of religion can freely partake
of the practices of their religion without opposition. This would not only
include private devotions, but also acts of religious significance within
the realm of government.
 Right now many folks adopt a view religious tolerance, rather than
religious freedom. Religious tolerance allows people the right to practice
a particular religion outside of the realm of government, and prohibits
them from bringing anything of even remote religious significance into the
public sector. This is not, as we shall see, what  the founders of our
country had in mind. The founders of our country recognized the importance
of religious freedom, as opposed to simple religious tolerance.
 In a pluralistic society such as the United States is today, one
will unquestionably ask, "Which religion? There are so many. Should even
Satanists be allowed to bring their religion into government?" To answer
briefly, no. "Religion" is here defined as some aspect of predominant
religion in the history of the Western Europe. Since that is where the
progenitor of our Constitutional framers originated, those are the
traditions that were primarily carried over. We note many instances of
historical religious devotion within the realm of government at the time of
the founding of our great republic, but all of them stem from some aspect
of a predominant Western religion. Whether we look at Sunday being
recognized as a day of rest or proclamations of thanksgiving, or the hiring
of chaplains, they all pertain to some aspect of significant Western faith.
Even as we don't allow religions which are inherently immoral or
corrupt to practice unchecked in this country, so we should we not
flagrantly allow any twisted philosophy, no matter how bizarre or
perverted, to have a seat at the state's table.
 This is not to say that people of non-Western faiths are not
allowed to practice their faiths within the United States, but rather to
simply make the case that we know of no historical precedent for United
States government involvement with unusual Eastern or pagan religion
Religious devotions in the United States government are virtually always
dedicated to the God of significant Western monotheism (e.g., "In God We
Trust" on our currency, "One nation, under God" in the Pledge of
Allegiance, "God save the United States and this honorable court" at the
beginning of Supreme Court sessions)..
 While religious tolerance is accepted, religious freedom appears to
be waning. Granted, during the conservative revolution of the past couple
of years the radicals for separation of church and state extremism seem to
have moderated themselves somewhat, but still there is much damage left to
be undone. Let's undo it.
===========================================================================

 Some comments on toleration
============================================================================
Toleration is not the goal, freedom and equality is the goal.
Toleration is, in the words of Thomas Paine, "Toleration is not the
opposite of  intolerance, but is the counterfeit of it. Both are
despotisms. The one assumes  to itself the right of with-holding Liberty of
Conscience, and the other of  granting it. The one is the pope armed with
fire and faggot, and the other is the  pope selling or granting
indulgences. The former is church and state, and  the latter is church and
traffic."
(Thomas Paine, RIGHTS OF MAN)
======================================================
A Discussion of Freedom of Religion And Freedom From Religion
http://candst.tripod.com/freefrom.htm

================================================

Tolerance is not freedom nor is it equality. It is a form of permission
granted or withheld by those in power, those in control. it is at the whim
of others, granted today taken back next week.

As Madison stated, " Who does not see that the same authority which can
establish Christianity in exclusion of all other Religions may establish
with the same ease any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all
other Sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to
contribute three pence [p*66] only of his property for the support of any
one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in
all cases whatsoever? "

The same authority that can establish any sect of Christianity can also
establish with the same ease any religion that suits them and force any or
all citizens to support that religion, practice it etc.

Toleration places the point of power in the hands of others, and  
they can extend this toleration or remove this toleration at will. 
Religious freedom places all on an equal footing, giving none  
power over any others. 

=============================================
    1871
    Treatise on the Constitutional Limitations Which Rest upon the
Legislative Powers of the States of the American Union
    Chapter XIII
    Of Religious Liberty
    Those things which are not lawful under any of the American
constitutions may be stated thus:---

 It is not mere toleration which is established in our system, but
religions equality.

Source of Information: Treatise on the Constitutional Limitations Which
Rest upon the Legislative Powers of the States of the American Union, By
Thomas M. Cooley, LL.D., Second Edition, Little, Brown, and Company 1871,
pp (467-478)
==================================================
Second, toleration is not genuine freedom; it is the opposite. By giving
preference to adherents of the state church and...
http://candst.tripod.com/spivey.htm
===================================================

No Power to Congress Over Religion: The Separation Clause
...orthodoxy enforced by the state, to toleration-and only later to
religious liberty. Historically speaking, of course, religious toleration
is to be sharply contrasted to religious liberty. Toleration implies the
existence of an...
http://candst.tripod.com/art4piii.htm
==================================================
The Sunday Mail Argument (1810-1830)
...What other nations call religious toleration we call religious rights.
They are not exercised in virtue of governmental indulgence, but as rights,
of which government cannot deprive any portion of citizens, however small.
Despotic...
http://candst.tripod.com/sundays3.htm
====================================================