Re: Ray attempts Biblical justification: was Re: U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking

Kane writes:

> > Kane has shared with us that he
> > perceived himself a victim of bullying during his childhood.
>
> "Perceived"? R R R You call some fat kid half again as big as me
> sitting on my chest pounding my face a perception?

Hi, Kane!

Your description of children bullying you is your perception, yes.  Who
else's would it be?

> > Kane set upon a
> > mission to physically assault the children.
>
> I did? And what were those things I did to do that, oh word twister?

My understanding of the mission you described was that you hit the kids and
broke enough noses that you could not later count them all up.  I understood
you to say that you "whipped ass" after age 11, but still lived in fear. You
spent a lot of time hitting kids bigger than you that thought your mild
manner made you an easy target.  Once other children learned that you could
hit after age 11, they left you alone.

Here is what you said exactly:

"I was a typical little squirt until I was about 15. Spent a good deal
of time dealing with kids much larger than me that thought the mild
mannered one was an easy target. Can't tell you how many noses I
broke.

"When I hit fifteen nature caught up and I grew and grew. The sight of
me was enough to discourage bullies, added to the knowledge that other
bullies that had mixed with me knew what I could do, and the rest of
my school years were easy.

"But despite the fact I could and did whip ass after age 11 or so,
having to live in fear was very distracting and to me damaging. YOU,
silly shit, don't know what you are talking about."

You are not really going to "try and claim that hitting isn't violence, are
you?"

> > He says that, today, he cannot count the number of children's noses he
> > broke.
>
> Try quoting in context.

I have included the actual quotes in this post.

> > Later, Kane said he grew taller and children were afraid of him.
>
> Bullies have now become "children." How interesting.

They were children.

 A 15 year old 180
> pound adversary who still outweighed me by 30 lbs or so and attacked
> ME thinking I was still a little kid is hardly a "children."

If the 15 year old is not a child, what is he/she?  You did not mention the
age or weight of any of those you perceived as "bullies" so I wouldn't know
how old the countless other kids with broken noses were.

> It's nice to see you are true to form with your creative misleading of
> the readers. You never seem to tire of it.

Is that "the same kind of nonsense thinking that goes with "spanking isn't
hitting?"
> > But prior to that time it appears he experienced a rather
> > violent, abusive childhood.
>
> Really? Compared to who?


As you mentioned, encountering bullies in the playground at age 11 is
commonplace.  Breaking their noses isn't.

> So tell us about your childhood Dung. I'll bet it was a doozy.


I had a wonderful childhood.  Loving, nurturing parents and lots of
adventures with friends.  Some might consider it boring -- grew up in an
upper middle class neighborhood on the Pacific Coast.

> > Family-system theorists may hold that he
> > bullies today because he continues to perceive himself as a victim.
>
> Do you find it easy to label someone as a bully who is using words on
> a medium where we can't even see each other?


Since I don't know you at all, attempting to label you with a DSM-IV label
would be foolish.  I did agree with the reader I responded to that your
written attacks against some members of this group was bullying.

> Do YOU feel bullied by me, Dung?


Not in the slightest.  I do not perceive myself among those members who have
received bullying replies.  I did not feel bullied as a child, either.

> > > You appear unable to converse with me without insults and ridicule.
> >  Aren't
> > > you trying to cause me pain and humiliation?  I find it hard to
believe
> >  that
> > > preventing these things is really very important to you.  I have told
you
> > > about my difficulties with my youngest child and rather than giving me
an
> > > alternative to spanking you have called me a liar and a bad parent.
You
> > > have proven to me just how dedicated you really are to preventing
> >  spanking.
> > > Whatever your words claim, your actions show that this is not a high
> > > priority for you at all.
> >
> > The abusive language he chooses -- especially to describe pseudo-events
> > involving children -- is troublesome.
>
> Please define "pseudo-events." I find your writing absolutely
> fascinating.


Thank you.

You have a habit of generalizing a population by providing a set of exacting
descriptions of a particular incident that plausably could have occurred
once.  For example, in writing about all children who are substantiated:
"CPS offices are filled with children with spiral fractures to their legs
and cigarette burns on their hands."  Since the specific description is
applied to the general population, the description is a pseudo-event.
First, CPS offices are not filled with children injured in this way; in
fact, they are not filled with children in any condition.  Second, the
majority of children substantiated by CPS are neither abused or neglected in
any way, but substantiated as being "at risk" of future maltreatment.   Of
those children who are substantiated for actual abuse -- which account for
around 10% of substantiated cases -- the injuries are generally much less
severe than the horrid picture you paint.  Such major injuries represent
less than 1% of substantiated cases.

> And who would I be troubling writing here in USENET? Are you the
> morals police?


No.

> > Family-systems folks would lay the
> > blame on his parents or foster caregiver.
>
> Odd, I had tons more gentle treatment and loving care than most kids
> of my age and time. Why would you assume anyone mistreated me? My
> foster parents, friends of my parents, were very good to me.


I would not make such an assumption.  Unfortunately, many caseworkers
applying family systems theory would.  This is one of the basic flaws in CPS
practice today -- assuming that a child's violent behavior is the fruit of
parental wrongdoing.

You have claimed, for instance, that children who are spanked are more
likely to be violent.

> > Others would say he is a
> > self-made man.
>
> We all are self made. Views to the contrary are a result of
> conditioning by a society invested in control of the individual to his
> or her detrement.


I absolutely and totally agree with you.  I submit that government agencies
inclination to blame parents as causal for a child's misbehavior or "acting
out" is the procedure of a government invested in control of families.

> > But few readers, if any, internalize his bullying as
> > reflective of them.
>
> You speak for USENET posters to these ngs we frequent?


Good point.  No, I don't speak for any other member of these newsgroups.
Now that you have pointed it out, I can see how my statement clearly implies
that I know what other members are thinking.  I do not.  I apologize for the
transgression.

> > He speaks volumes about himself.
>
> You speak for me now?


No, I think you speak volumes about yourself.

> I find that you, on the other hand, are a master at concealing who and
> what you are. I've had to read your posts for sometime to uncover some
> interesting things about you.
>
> One of the things I've noticed from the beginning though is that you
> are quick to attempt to preempt folks should they appear the least
> vulnerable, as child spankers almost invariably are.


I disagree.  If you have an example of this practice you accuse me of, I
would be happy to consider it.  I do not believe that I have ever preempted
folks I perceive to be vulnerable.

Whatever you perceive you have "uncovered" about me is simply your
construction.  It is not likely to have anything to do with me.

If you are saying that your discovery is that I have spanked children, you
are wrong.  I have raised 4 children and two step-children.  I have never
spanked any of them.  I believe it is up to parents to decide which methods
of disclipline to use.  Spanking is not my choice for a number of reasons.

But, again, families vary tremendously.  Children are different.  Parents
are different.  Situations are different.  So, whether to spank or not to
spank is up to the parent's descreation.

It most certainly is NOT a decision the government has any right in making,
as current law in all fifty states makes clear.

 > Ready to come clean yet, Dung?


About what?  I have always been forthright in this forum.  The only
mysteries are those you harbor in your head.  You just shared with us one of
your guesses.  You were wrong.

Ready to guess again?