Re: Is Jesus honored when people make a lie in His honor?

in article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paola Addamiano- & Marty Carts at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 12/2/03 11:45 PM:

> Emailed too.  "Raymond E. Griffith" wrote:
> 
>> Jon Houts wrote :
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>> Scott Bryce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>>>> Jon Houts wrote:
> 
> Just to be on the record, I think that some people
> just *Nneeeeeeeeeeeed* to have something to
> be against and I think this is a stupid issue to take
> issue with.  I can't see how Jer:10 speaks of
> anything but a *wrought* item, product of
> craftsmen and smelters, pointedly *not* pointedly
> a simple tree, however adorned.

I agree.

> 
> And furthermore, if I were to decorate my house
> with ancient sculptures, and one of them happened
> to be a gilt calf that looked pretty on the end table,
> I can't seriously be considered to be in idolatry by
> people of reasonable intellect.

I agree.

> 
> But perhaps I'm forgetting that this here Christmas
> debate is a custom, and *some*one had to draw
> the short straws?

Ahh, well. But I guess it is debatable who has the short straw!

> 
>>>>>> Actually, Jeremiah's talking about an idol
>>>>>> carved of wood, covered in gold (and
>>>>>> silver) leaf.
> 
>>>>> Oh, there you go throwing monkey wrenches
>>>>> into people's arguments by correctly
>>>>> interpreting scripture!
> 
>>>> Incorrect: you miss the point. The shape of
>>>> the idol is not mentioned, because it's
>>>> irrelevant.
> 
>>> Right. The shape isn't important, but it is "shaped," not whole, and
>>> condemning the use of Christmas trees using this verse is a leap.
> 
>>>> If the heathen brought their idol inside
>>>> whole, rather than carved, then Jeremiah's
>>>> condemnation is equally applicable.
> 
>>> Sure, but he's referring to idols.  I've had potted palm trees in my home
>>> before, and I have some figurines carved of wood even now (and a Christmas
>>> tree, too...but that's not really a tree, it's steel and plastic).  But,
>>> none of them are idols.
> 
>> Which I believe satisfies all requirements. We are not "learning the way of
>> the heathen" by bringing a tree or a statue into the house any more than we
>> are if we were to eat "meat offered to idols" (as in 1 Corinthians 8-9).
> 
>> The Christmas tree is not an idol. It is not worshipped. It is not prayed
>> to, or expected to intercede for us. It is a symbol only, albeit a special
>> one. It is true that the world has rather taken to it, misused and
>> misunderstood it (like it does any real spiritual value).
> 
> I think that beyond all the current nonsense
> about heathen roots behind the Christmas tree,
> there probably *is* an issue of people coming
> dangerously close to worshipping the tree and/or
> other trappings of the Christmas buying season.

Possibly. But I tend to doubt it.

> While they certainly wouldn't ask it to intercede,
> there are other ways to raise up something as a
> god.  Looking to something to cause you
> happiness is giving that thing spiritual value.

Giving something "spiritual value" is not the same thing as worshipping it.
For example, in Romans 14 we have those who regard a day to be holier than
other days, while another may regard every day alike. Yet the
acknowledgement is that "the one who observes the day does it for the Lord".

Furthermore, we are able to find happiness in many things that we do not
worship. "I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the
Lord." I look forward to going to church -- it gives me happiness to go! Yet
that does not make it an idol or anything close to one.

Now perhaps many people abuse such things. People abuse painkillers, but
that doesn't make Tylenol wrong if used correctly. Hmmm. I just thought of
something. I am unhappy with my arthritis. I take Tylenol for it. I am then
happier because I don't hurt. Oh no! Am I worshipping the Tylenol bottle?

(Yes, I was just being silly there -- in case anyone missed it. But it is
late and I am about to go to bed.)

> 
>> But the world's misuse of
>> this symbol is no reason for me to not use it.
> 
> Unless it causes scandal, causes others to falter.

We do have that command that we should not put a stumbling-block in a
brother's way. Yet the brother who will not walk around the stumbling-block
he sees is responsible for his own faltering. The commands for graciousness
are actually given to both sides, else the "weaker brother" could exercise a
kind of tyranny over the "stronger brother".

If a brother or sister is offended by my tree, I will simply fellowship with
them outside of my house, or in a location that will likely cause less
offence. If I am a "stronger brother" and their offence makes them the
"weaker brother", then I have to look out for them. But "each must be fully
convinced in his own mind."

But thinking about it, might I by having the tree be the "weaker brother"
and the person against it be the "stronger brother"? Interesting concept.
Perhaps it is how you look at it. In any case, "We must not pass judgment on
one another, but rather determine never to place an obstacle or trap before
a brother or sister." I agree with that.

> 
>> The more dangerous idols are those which are unseen, the idols of the heart.
>> Greed, lust, even legalism can be idols. Some people serve money. Some serve
>> their jobs. Some serve their "faith". Whatever is put before the Lord
>> Himself can be an idol.
> 
> I think this season is itself a bit of an idol, along
> with its various individual trappings such as trees,
> muzak, and the present orgy.  People essentially
> worship it, sacrificing their credit to it every year.

Perhaps. But being against the season won't help these people, nor will it
remove any stumbling-blocks. I think that being against the season might
actually become a stumbling-block to some of these people.

I also don't think that being against the season or trees or other such
would help those who are against Christmas for whatever reasons.

What might be more helpful is to help others to focus on Christ. The season
is supposed to be about Him, after all. Having or not having a tree says
nothing about one's focus -- that is an individual heart matter. Giving and
receiving gifts does not mean that one's heart is out of place. If the focus
is on Christ then the trappings can help promote worship. If the focus is
not on Christ then the trappings (or their absence) really do not add any
more sin to the heart than is already there, IMO.

But if you note, there were certain days which the Jews celebrated as days
of gladness and feasting. Here's one.

Esther 9:22
As the days wherein the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month which
was turned unto them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day:
that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions
one to another, and gifts to the poor.

Christmas is such a day for my family -- not because we worship the day, or
the season, but because we worship Christ.

> 
> Uh oh, I think I'm getting into the Christmas spirit!
> 
> Bah HUMBUG! ____________________Marty

What the Dickens? Keep that up and the Christmas Spirits might have to pay
you a visit <wg>. 

Cheers! (Yawn! Look at the time! Off to bed with me!)

Raymond