Re: have your rankings of favorite Meistersingers changed?

Surprised to find that Furwangler was not named here in the discussion
Is it not worth mentioning?
In fact, I enjoy it very much, though it is not complete
Thanks for any comment, if I may solicit
Regards,


Elizabeth Hubbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> [from Geof. Riggs; not Eliz. H., my better half]
> 
> Andante teneramente wrote:
> > sorach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote 
> > 
> > 
> >>Now that Andante.com have released a re-mastered the 
> >>Toscanini/VPO, have your rankings of favorite Meistersingers 
> >>changed? Has there been a vast improvement in sound to warrant 
> >>such a change? 
> > 
> > 
> > Not for me. The sound leaves much to be desired. I'm glad I got the
> > Toscanini Meistersinger, but they are more an interesting and
> > enriching experience than a favourite recording. 
> 
> I tend to think it may be a more central entry than that.  Since I have
> had one of the so-so LP editions of this for years, it may be that the
> exhilarating improvement in the Andante CD has me more enthused than
> some others might be -- purely because the contrast drawn with any of
> the LP editions is so stark.  There is, for the first time, real space
> and dynamic range in this recording, and I now find I can respond to it
> as if I were sitting right there in the auditorium rather than merely
> picking my way through a series of inchoate sounds.  For its place in
> the overall discography, see below.
> 
> >>I'm not upto date with developments, but what about Abendroth & 
> >>Kubelik? Are they getting any treatment in the near future? 
> > 
> > --snip-- 
> > 
> > The Kubelik Meistersinger have recently appeared on the ARTS label.
> > There was a thread about it some weeks ago. 
> 
> Part I (of III)
> 
> I concede I have not yet heard the Kubelik in this new ARTS pressing.
> Apparently, though, the out-of-print CALIG was superior to the MYTO
> pressing, which is the one I have.  As it is, the MYTO pressing has
> always given me great satisfaction, while, at the same time, the
> Kubelik's place in the discography may have been challenged in certain
> respects by the ANDANTE Toscanini, but not in all (more below).
> 
> In any case, as a recording, the MYTO edition of the Kubelik is already
> one of the most satisfying readings I know.  Kubelik's way with the
> score captures the midsummer feel to perfection, IMO, and his principals
> parallel this warm inviting approach to what is, after all, a comedy of
> manners -- with heart.
> 
> Particularly welcome are the refulgent sounds of Gundula Janowitz and
> Sandor Konya as Eva and Walther.  Brigitte Fassbaender's Magdalene is
> not far behind them, and Unger still sounds almost as youthful a David
> as in his earlier reading on Kempe's second recording (for EMI).  The
> rest of the cast is certainly satisfying as well.
> 
> But to cut to the chase, while Stewart's Sachs is certainly strong and
> musical and accords well with the human tenderness of Kubelik's other
> principals, he does have a few moments of strain and unsteadiness that
> may bother certain listeners.  I find my own responses to these very
> occasional lapses vary somewhat depending on mood, concentration,
> grouchiness....;-)  Also, I have to say that there are extended
> sequences where Stewart is perfectly fine in every respect.  Pages and
> pages of lively projection of one of the most likable characters in the
> canon, IMO.  That counts for a lot.  But dipping into the
> slightly-past-his-prime-but-still-musical Paul Schoeffler on the studio
> Kna, for instance, reveals the extent to which Stewart is not quite as
> comfortable in his own skin as a truly great Sachs (like a Schoeffler or
> a Schorr) can be.
> 
> The Toscanini lineup has no such inequality, IMO.  The rest of the cast
> may not be quite so consistent as Kubelik's, but the critical
> Sachs/Eva/Walther trio of Hans Hermann Nissen/Maria Reining/Henk Noort
> is simply so consistently strong and sure in the Toscanini and
> Toscanini's own conducting complements that strength to such a degree
> (although I do prefer Kubelik here by just a tad) that the overall
> effect of this recording reflects a surer _artistic_ whole, I feel, than
> what we hear in the Kubelik!  That is a headline in itself, I feel,
> since the Kubelik set, purely as a performance, has always seemed one of
> the finest artistic achievements in the discography anyway -- and now,
> artistically, the Toscanini tops it.  Janowitz and Konya's peaks in the
> Kubelik may sparkle even more than Reining and Noort with Toscanini, but
> Reining and Noort are never less than good, while Nissen seems somewhat
> more at ease in Sachs's skin than Stewart is.  His stalwart
> interpretation is welcome, even though it may not have quite the
> haunting autumnal insights of the very greatest in this part.  Best of
> all, unlike many Wagner performances from this period, this performance
> is uncut.
> 
> There remains the matter of sound quality.  There are places where this
> new restoration of the Toscanini reminds me of early 1950s mono!  Since
> both the studio Kna and the second Kempe are also in 1950s mono, and yet
> their top three principals are not as consistent as in the Toscanini
> while the overall cohesiveness of these two studio sets is still superb
> enough nevertheless to warrant their being placed in the very front rank
> of all available Meistersingers, then, at the least, the Toscanini too,
> with its occasionally-as-good-sound and generally stronger trio leading
> the cast, deserves equal consideration.
> 
> The Kubelik, though, has truly excellent sound altogether (and I've only
> heard it in the supposedly inferior MYTO!!).  Its distinguishing
> characteristic then is that it is the most revealing and well-prepared
> reading of the score available in modern stereo.  That puts it in a very
> special niche.  No question.  Neither the Toscanini, the studio Kna, nor
> the second Kempe can match that.
> 
> 
> Part II
> 
> Out of roughly thirty readily available Meistersingers, there are now, I
> feel, ten competitive entries.
> 
> [in chronological order]
> 1.  In 1936, from MUSIC & ARTS, we have a "live" Met broadcast,
> featuring Friedrich Schorr, Elisabeth Rethberg and Rene Maison, under
> Artur Bodanzky.  This is a lively, thoroughly engaging performance with
> vivid characterizations and wonderful singing throughout.  Schorr's
> warm, consoling vocal "face" for this role, his always lively
> imagination and mercurial projection of the character's many moods, plus
> his caressing vocalism, place his Sachs in a class by itself.  One feels
> one is privy to Wagner's own imagination in Schorr's reading.  A
> treasure, which we are highly privileged to hear nearly seventy years
> after it took place!  The rest of the principals are nearly at the same
> exalted level, and Bodanzky's conducting is keen and lyrical.  The cons
> here are fair sound only and dozens of cuts in the performing edition
> the Met was using at the time.
> 
> 2.  In 1937, from ANDANTE, there is the Toscanini set, which I've
> already covered, and which has the advantage of almost as strong a cast
> as in #1 and heard in significantly better sound and uncut.
> 
> 3.  In the early '40s, under Abendroth, we have a lively performance
> featuring the other great Sachs, Paul Schoeffler, in his absolute prime.
>   Most of the other principals, including the underrecorded Hilde
> Scheppan as Eva, sound fine as well.  This is also in good sound.  If
> you find it hard to enjoy Schorr's Sachs in compromised sound, here's a
> chance to enjoy uncut the entire work with a Sachs, Paul Schoeffler, who
> also dominates with almost as lively and beatiful an interpretation as
> anything you hear in Schorr.  Enjoying Sachs's music in this way, uncut
> and in good sound, places this set in a class of its own.  Where I find
> this one wanting -- and some may demur -- is in Ludwig Suthaus's
> Walther.  It is clear that Suthaus is still in his youthful prime, but I
> find the role a bad fit.  However fresh his instrument, too much of the
> high-lying music emerges in an effortful manner, IMO, and heard through
> two or more playings, this can sometimes cast a pall over continued
> enjoyment of the performance as a whole -- for me, anyway.  Another
> aspect that sometimes bothers me a bit less, although I deeply respect
> and can readily understand those who might find it much more troubling,
> is the period and country in which this performance takes place: Nazi
> Germany.  For some, this aspect can make people's blood run cold.  And I
> can't say I'm ready to blame them.  Ultimately, though, it's tenor
> inadequacies that, IMO, relegate this to being merely a strong entry
> rather than one of the very best.
> 
> 4.  In 1949, under Jochum, we have, from Munich, one of the liveliest
> readings of all.  The third great Sachs, Hans Hotter, leads the cast.
> His Sachs may be the most insightful of all, while vocally he tires
> somewhat in the closing moments.  Treptow is heard in his absolute
> prime, and I must say I enjoy his usually musical and well-interpreted
> Walther.  No question his is not the bright easy kind of tenor best
> heard in this role.  But I rarely find him off-putting here (the way I
> do Suthaus).  Kupper's Eva, though, I do -- find off-putting, that is.
> An entirely unsympathetic vocal "face", IMO, registering far too much
> effort in one of the most deftly written roles Wagner ever conceived.
> What a shame.  Jochum's reading is delightful and deserves an article in
> itself!  Nothing is missed in a brilliant traversal.  The vivid
> goings-on in every scene have the effect of animated conversation
> throughout, precisely what the earliest conductors who learned this
> opera from Wagner himself were consistently praised for.  This
> conversational quality is the touchstone of the very greatest
> Meistersinger conductors, and Jochum has it for days!  What a
> revelation.  If not for his Eva............
> 
> 5.  The same lively conversational quality triumphs in Karajan's first
> set, "live" from Bayreuth, 1951.  In fact, in many ways, this is the
> most thoroughly amusing interpretation as well.  The humor in the work
> is always brought out effortlessly and naturally.  Edelmann's Sachs is
> more in the Nissen mold than most of his distinguished predecessors.
> But one salutes a vocal resiliency that is even greater than
> Nissen's(!), reaching the final moments with untiring resonance and
> vocal line.  Schwarzkopf's Eva is also heard at its very best (possibly
> the best reading on disc?).  The con here (there's always one:-( ) is
> Hans Hopf's Walther.  IMO, his ungainly pummeling of this music is
> simply unacceptable.  He may have a somewhat stronger vocal resiliency
> than Suthaus, for instance, but his approach and voice is less
> attractive.  I really cannot take to him, and sincere regrets to any
> Hopf fans who may be reading this.  That said, for a lively, amusing and
> well-directed performance, one could do a lot worse than this.
> 
> 6.  From 1950/'51, on DECCA/LONDON, we have, under Hans Knappertsbusch,
> the first set made in the recording studio.  Surprisingly, the sound is
> relatively thin and undernourished.  It's hardly inadequate, merely not
> up to what one would have expected from DECCA/LONDON at the time.  That
> said, this Kna reading is enthralling from beginning to end.  Again, the
> conversational quality is truly caught.  The unforced lyricism in much
> of the performance also achieves a naturalness that may be unique in the
> discography.  And we have Paul Schoeffler's superb Sachs.  Here, he may
> not be as fresh-voiced as for Abendroth, but he is still in quite good
> control (with his vocal flexibility still sufficient for the divisions
> in the "Euch macht ihr's leicht"), and the sheer musicality and keenness
> of his Sachs are as welcome as ever.  And he is in better company than
> for Abendroth.  Gueden's Eva is a marvel and epitomizes the gemutlich
> qualities of most of Kna's principals, and, for a wonder, we even have
> primo tenore Anton Dermota delivering the most lilting David on disc!
> For Walther, we rehear Gunther Treptow, two years older than for Jochum
> -- and sometimes sounding older than that in Act III.  The rehearsal
> scene with Sachs in the cobbler shop is occasionally disconcerting and
> does not wear well.  Elsewhere, he's not that objectionable, IMO, but he
> is simply not as natural-sounding as for Jochum.  If there's a flaw in
> this set, it would be that rehearsal scene.  Aside from that, this may
> be the most enthralling Meistersinger I've yet heard.
> 
> 7.  In 1952, we are back to a "live" performance.  This time, it's
> Bayreuth, and in the pit is, once more, Hans Knappertsbusch.  This is an
> even greater reading from him than we hear in DECCA/LONDON's recording
> studios!  His cast is not quite at the same exalted level, but it's
> rarely bad.  Edelmann repeats his accomplished Sachs, and this recording
> affords a rare opportunity to sample Lisa Della Casa's Eva: a bewitching
> Eva, and one of the most sympathetic available.  This was, of course,
> the same Bayreuth production as the Karajan a year before, so we
> shouldn't be surprised, though disappointed, to find Hopf repeating his
> wearying Walther.  This recording showcases, all told, a wonderful
> reading of the score from Kna -- possibly the finest reading from anyone
> on disc save Wilhelm Furtwaengler's available with a dismal Grade-B cast
> during the war -- though this Bayreuth set's cast is not of the same
> high rank as Kna's fine studio effort.
> 
> 8.  From the mid-'50s, on EMI, we have the last of the great thoroughly
> conversational readings: Kempe's second Meistersinger is as inspired in
> this regard as Jochum, the young Karajan, or Knappertsbusch -- and Kempe
> has a genuine warmth all his own.  His cast is generally excellent as
> well, and I can understand why many regard this as the best set of all.
>   Frantz's Sachs may not be the most perceptive ever, but he is strong
> enough in the role to equal (almost) a Nissen or an Edelmann, IMO, and
> Gruemmer's Eva sports a lovely vocal quality and the inborn vividness of
> a true actress.  When luminaries like Gustav Neidlinger, Gottlob Frick,
> and Hermann Prey (as the Nightwatchman!!!!!!!!!!), and so on, are heard
> in supporting roles, one has to acknowledge this set as something very
> special indeed.  Rudolf Schock's tenor voice is more suited to this role
> than that of some of his predecessors like Suthaus or Treptow, but I
> stand in a minority in that I find the strain heard in Schock's singing
> even more disconcerting than Treptow's on the studio Kna.  As I say, I
> recognize this as a minority opinion, but I feel that, ultimately,
> Schock's occasional struggles simply compromise the phrasing more than
> do Treptow's, the latter seeming marginally more musical to me.  Schock
> still seems more attractive in this role, though, than Hopf.
> 
> 9.  From the mid-'60s comes the Kubelik set, which I've already covered
> in Part I.  I would like to add here that I wholeheartedly admire the
> warmth and naturalness of Kubelik's music-making, but that the Kubelik
> reading -- more perhaps because of the vocally flamboyant qualities of
> most of Kubelik's principals than because of Kubelik himself -- does not
> have as universally conversational a quality as some other choice sets,
> veering more toward the oratorical, though not necessarily in a bad way.
>   However, this set does have just enough of the conversational to
> qualify as one of the finest recordings available.
> 
> 10.  From 1995, on DECCA/LONDON, we have, in Solti's second
> Meistersinger recording, quite the most consistently musical cast heard
> in this score since 1937 and Arturo Toscanini.  Van Dam's Sachs may not
> have the rolling orotund vocal quality of the greatest bass-baritones
> heard in the part, but Van Dam's refinement and insight, his sense of
> the poetic, and, above all, his invariably disciplined shaping of the
> music, stamp him as one of the fine ones, IMO.  I recognize this take on
> my part as not necessarily a prevailing view.  Some believe that Van Dam
> brings out too much of the poet at the expense of the cobbler.  But I
> believe that the cobbler is not necessarily short-changed, merely placed
> in a less conspicuous perspective.  (Sometimes, I believe that too many
> others with the requisite burly tones have inadvertently short-changed
> the poet faaaaaaar too much, BTW!!!)  And in a way, Van Dam's emphasis
> may be thanks to Van Dam's own intelligence and self-awareness vocally.
> Recognizing that his tones are not as burly as others, he may have
> deliberately decided to make Sachs _the_ philosopher of the
> Mastersingers circle.  Of course, Schorr and Schoeffler already do this
> to an extent (listeners steeped in later and gruffer readings tend to
> overlook this), but Van Dam is the first to do this so overtly in modern
> times.  And I welcome this as a necessary corrective.  The musically
> disciplined quality in Van Dam is typical of everyone else in the cast.
>   Mattila and Heppner are clearly a bel canto pair of lovers, and one
> has to wonder whether anyone has ever sung Pogner with more "Golden-Age"
> sound than Rene Pape.  Solti's reading, though, is the antithesis of the
> conversational Karajan, of Kempe, what-have-you.  This Meistersinger is
> _serious_, with a high sense of purpose and decorum in all its
> characters.  It is not unfelt at all, but what the characters say here
> is rarely offhand or intimate in the way we hear from others.  These are
> characters reflecting a consistent aristocracy of spirit that can
> sometimes be touching and sometimes be distancing.  It's not the way I'd
> always want to hear the score, but it's not necessarily wrong for all
> that.  An interesting alternative view, complemented by music-making as
> superb as we can ever expect to hear.
> 
> 
> Part III
> 
> Summary, conclusions, [subjective] rankings:
> 
> Overall recording assessments:
> 
> In the top tier:
> 
> Toscanini; studio Knappertsbusch; Kubelik.
> 
> Of these three, the Toscanini has the best overall cast, the Kna is the
> best conducted, and the Kubelik has the best sound.  But essentially,
> they each give huge satisfaction, and I wouldn't be without any of these.
> 
> In the second tier:
> 
> Kempe (his second); Solti (his second).
> 
> Both these sets I've occasionally slotted in at the top tier in the past
> -- and may do so again;-)
> 
> On the second Kempe, Schock's intrinsic type of tenor is apt enough for
> Walther to complement -- to an extent -- the sheer rightness of
> everything else in this set.  If it was just a matter of Schock's
> intrinsic sound and not also a troubling matter of what he _does_ -- or
> seems ultimately unable to do -- with that sound, this Kempe set could
> well be the very finest of all: fully as warm as Kubelik, just as
> conversational as the studio Kna, more consistently sung than the
> Toscanini (putting aside Kempe's Schock).
> 
> The second Solti is such a feast for the ears, both vocally and
> sonically, if not for the heart, that there have been times when I've
> wondered when Wagner's music has ever sounded so beautiful.  But with
> the Toscanini now being made available in at least respectable sound, if
> not comparable to the superb sonics in this Solti, and with the
> Toscanini boasting just as fine a cast overall with superior conducting
> to boot, the Solti with its similar range of virtues and (somewhat) less
> engaged conducting (IMO) now gets slotted in second.  This is certainly
> one clear instance in which the advent of the ANDANTE Toscanini has
> changed substantively the face of the Meistersinger discography, in my view.
> 
> Just to clarify, I wouldn't think it necessarily unfortunate were one to
> choose either the second Kempe or the second Solti as one's introduction
> to Meistersinger.
> 
> In the third tier:
> 
> Bodanzky; Abendroth; "live" Jochum; Karajan (his first); "live" Kna.
> 
> These are, for me, the so-called "niche" recordings.
> 
> The Bodanzky is the most superbly sung of all.  The Abendroth boasts the
> most superb uncut and decently recorded Hans Sachs.  The "live" Jochum
> is the most vividly characterized.  The first Karajan is the most genial
> and amusing.  The "live" Kna is the most superbly conducted.
> 
> Our understanding of Wagner's score would be the poorer without each and
> every one of these sets, but I might still demur at choosing any single
> one of them as one's introduction to Wagner's masterpiece.  One
> shouldn't, it strikes me, get introduced to Meistersinger via cuts and
> very ho-hum sound (the Bodanzky), one's first Meistersinger should not
> have as effortful a Walther as the unsuitable Suthaus or the ungainly
> Hopf (however young Suthaus is with Abendroth and however sparkling the
> humor be on the first Karajan or inspired the conducting be on the
> "live" Kna), and one shouldn't have as one's first Eva a vocal persona
> who seems older than the Magdalene(!) (the "live" Jochum).
> 
> I admire these because there are certain things that emerge more
> distinctively on them than anywhere else, but they're only recommended
> after one has already learned the opera well via one of the other five
> sets cited further up (in fact, I don't now own either the Abendroth or
> the "live" Kna -- that could change, of course).
> 
> 
> Hans Sachs rankings (subjective, of course):
> 
> 1.  Friedrich Schorr
> 
> 2.  Paul Schoeffler on Abendroth
> 
> 3.  Paul Schoeffler on the studio Kna
> 
> 4.  Hans Hotter
> 
> 5.  Jose Van Dam
> 
> 6.  Otto Edelmann on the "live" Kna
> 
> 7.  Otto Edelmann on the first Karajan
> 
> 8.  Hans Hermann Nissen
> 
> 9.  Ferdinand Frantz
> 
> 10. Thomas Stewart
> 
> 
> Eva rankings:
> 
> 1.  Elisabeth Schwarzkopf
> 
> 2.  Elisabeth Rethberg/Hilde Gueden/Lisa Della Casa/Elisabeth
> Gruemmer/Gundula Janowitz/Karita Mattila
> 
> 3.  Maria Reining/Hilde Scheppan
> 
> 4.  A. Kupper
> 
> 
> Walther rankings:
> 
> 1.  Sandor Konya
> 
> 2.  Ben Heppner
> 
> 3.  Rene Maison/Henk Noort
> 
> 4.  Gunther Treptow on the "live" Jochum
> 
> 5.  Gunther Treptow on the studio Kna
> 
> 6.  Rudolf Schock
> 
> 7.  Ludwig Suthaus
> 
> 8.  Hans Hopf
> 
> 
> Conductor rankings:
> 
> 1.  Hans Knappertsbusch "live"
> 
> 2.  Rudolf Kempe
> 
> 3.  Eugen Jochum
> 
> 4.  Hans Knappertsbusch (in the studio)
> 
> 5.  Herbert von Karajan (his first)
> 
> 6.  Rafael Kubelik
> 
> 7.  Artur Bodanzky
> 
> 8.  Arturo Toscanini
> 
> 9.  Herman Abendroth
> 
> 10. Georg Solti (his second)
> 
> 
> Finally, sound quality:
> 
> 1.  Kubelik; Solti (his second)
> 
> 2.  Kempe; von Karajan (his first)
> 
> 3.  Toscanini; Abendroth; "live" Jochum; Knappertsbusch (studio);
> Knappertsbusch "live"
> 
> 4.  Bodanzky
> 
> 
> Hoping this may prove useful to some.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Geoffrey Riggs
> www.operacast.com